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Initial Complaint
08/29/2023
Complaint Type:
Service or Repair Issues
Status:
Answered
The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.
Kayak damages the property as listed below:-Excessive turf damage -Ripped coaxial cables out of ground -Ripped internet cables out of ground -Ripped phone line out of ground -Smashed new fencing and posts -Damaged concrete driveway and walkways -Did not provide electrical terminations -Did not backfill area as contracted -Provided the wrong **********, 4 short -Damaged new aluminum deck due to careless installation including hand sawing on new deck.
Business response
09/07/2023
Firstly, regarding the issue of excessive turf damage, we want to clarify that extensive yard damage was expected and openly discussed with the ********* throughout the project. This information was explicitly outlined in their signed contract, checklist, and final inspection checklist, all of which have been included for your review. The Wittway's were well-informed that yard damage is a normal and unavoidable aspect of major construction, as evidenced by recorded conversations and signed agreements.

Secondly, the Wittway's reported damage to coaxial cables, internet cables, and a phone line. Our installation team was unaware of these utilities' presence as they were not marked before the project began. We stress the importance of utility marking to ensure a smooth installation process.

Thirdly, accidents during installation resulted in damage to the Wittway's fencing, posts, driveway, and walkways. Our installer offered to cover the cost of repairs, but the Wittway's declined, stating, "Hey, sometimes I can be an a**hole, don't worry about it." We remain committed to addressing this issue to the Wittway's satisfaction.

Fourth, electrical terminations were not provided as per the Wittway's contract. It is clearly stipulated that they are responsible for arranging electrical work with a licensed electrician, a point reiterated in several discussions and documented in their signed contract and checklist.

Fifth, backfilling was delayed due to the need for an electrical inspection, this was communicated to the Wittway's. This precaution ensures that all safety measures are met before proceeding with backfilling.

Sixth, it came to our attention that the Wittway's received a solar reel that was 4 feet shorter than the expected 16 feet. We thoroughly examined both the order and the packing list from Kayak New York, and they unequivocally indicate that the solar reel ordered and packed was indeed 16 feet. If there is any discrepancy in this measurement, we are more than willing to promptly provide the correct one to ensure their satisfaction.

Lastly, the Wittway's reported damage to their new aluminum deck during installation, including hand sawing on the deck. We are prepared to address this issue as well, pending the Wittway's provision of pictures and a count of the damaged deck panels. We take full responsibility for any damage incurred during the installation and aim to restore the deck to its original condition.

We highly value the Wittway's business and are fully dedicated to resolving these concerns to their satisfaction. We appreciate the opportunity to respond to this complaint and assure the BBB that we will continue working diligently to achieve a fair resolution.
Initial Complaint
08/06/2023
Complaint Type:
Service or Repair Issues
Status:
Answered
The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.
On February 14, 2023, we entered into a contract with Kayak Pools Midwest for a 16 x 32, 4-deep pool for $45,979 and paid a $11,495 down payment. Installation was to take 2 days. On March 31, we upgraded to a 6.5 deep end pool for $4,695. On May 5, we upgraded to a hard bottom for $2,995 and were advised installation would now take 3 days because of the time required for the concrete to cure. The final total was $53,669. On May 8, we paid Kayak an additional $41,174. On June 16, Kayaks installation crew began installation of our pool. On June 17, after allowing only 12 hours for the concrete to cure, the installation crew installed the liner and finished the majority of the framing, minus several missing parts. On June 17, we paid Kayak the final $1,000 owed. On June 18, we discovered the installation crew had left the water hose they borrowed from our back yard in the pool, with the water running. We took immediate measures to mitigate the overflowing water. On July 1, we entered the pool for the first time and discovered the hard bottom was uneven with many sharp pointed rocks poking up into the bottom of the vinyl lining and many divots where the hard bottom had settled in places. On July 6, the installation crew returned and agreed the hard bottom would need to be removed and reinstalled, and a new liner installed because once removed, the old liner could not be reused. On July 29, the installation crew finally returned, removed the liner and observed the crumbling hard bottom. The installation crew offered us the choice of a patch job or a new hard bottom. We requested a new hard bottom. Despite many, many attempts to reach Kayak through multiple avenues, we have never heard from Kayak again. Our telephone calls, voice mail messages, text messages and emails have not been returned. We are out of pocket $58,439.42, including permit, sand, electrical and water, and as of August 6, 2023, we still do not have a usable swimming pool.
Business response
08/15/2023
We want to extend our sincere apologies for the difficulties you've encountered with your pool installation. We understand the frustrations you've experienced, and we're committed to resolving these issues promptly. Our team is actively collaborating with our installation experts to develop a comprehensive plan that will address the outstanding concerns.
Your patience during this process is truly appreciated. We recognize the time and investment you've put into this project, and we are fully dedicated to ensuring a successful outcome. We are working diligently to rectify the uneven hard bottom, install a new liner, and ensure the overall quality of your pool.
Please know that your feedback is invaluable to us, and we are taking steps to improve our communication channels moving forward. We are determined to provide you with the high-quality pool experience you deserve.
Thank you for your trust in Kayak Pools Midwest. We will continue to keep you updated on our progress and remain available to address any further questions or concerns you may have.
Customer response
09/18/2023
Better Business Bureau:

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined the response would not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.

[Provide details of why you are not satisfied with this resolution.]
We contracted with Kayak for a $53,669 pool. They enticed us into paying an $11,495 down payment on February 14, ***************************************************************** late spring/early summer. We paid an additional $41,174 on May 8, and an additional $1,000 on June 17. They kept rescheduling the install, and then on June ********************************************************************* the pool, overflowing the pool and destroying the hard bottom. We waited for the pool to warm up enough to swim in and then discovered during our first swim on July 1 that the pool was unsafe due to the botched hard bottom. We notified Kayak of the issue on July 3, after which Kayak refused to communicate with us. We finally filed a BBB complaint on August 6. Kayak left a voice mail August 7 saying they would be in touch before the end of the week. They again failed to contact us. It took so long for Kayak to schedule another install that the BBB closed our first complaint! The removal of the hard bottom and reinstall took place August *****. After waiting a week for pool to heat up, we had only a few days before the traditional pool closing time of Labor Day weekend. As of September 16, we have a scratched pool deck that is heavily stained with Poolcrete, 47 bags of Poolcrete sitting in our garage, an uninstalled ladder, missing parts, and no pool inspection by Kayak as we had to coordinate and manage virtually the entire installation process ourselves. Kayak knew in late 2022 that the most important thing to us was having a pool installed for the 2023 swim season which did not occur. In addition Kayak breached the contract by failing to perform.

Regards,

*********************

Business response
09/28/2023
We have enclosed Mr. and ******************* signed contract and checklist for your reference. The contract explicitly states, "Customer understands the current timeline of Early/Mid Summer 2023 installation, subject to weather, financing, and unforeseen circumstances, based on the installation checklist date." The original install date for the pool was June 10, 2023, and the service to replace the hard bottom took place on August 24, 2023.
To address the damage to the decking caused during the service, we are fully committed to replacing it. Kindly provide us with photos and a count of the affected decking sections that require replacement, and we will promptly order the necessary parts and schedule the repair. Additionally, we kindly ask for a list of any additional missing parts, and rest assured, these will be addressed along with the decking replacement.
It's important to note that the customer's checklist indicates that they did not contract us to obtain their permit. In this case, Mr. and *************** are responsible for initiating the inspection process themselves.
We appreciate your attention to this matter and thank you for your assistance.

Customer response
10/04/2023
As requested, please see the attached rebuttal to Kayaks response to our complaint.

*In the interest of brevity, please note that we have omitted the extensive documentation of how many times Kayak refused to respond to telephone calls, voice mails, emails or text messages over a five-month period. Because it is critical to understanding the length and breadth of Kayaks breach of contract through their absolute refusal to communicate, their absolute refusal to install our pool in a timely manner as required by the contract terms, and their absolute refusal to mitigate their own poor workmanship, please refer back to our original complaint filed August 6, 2023, for such details.

We disagree that the original install date for the pool was June 10, 2023. The original install date for the pool was May 29 with ***** and crew. On May 23, we inadvertently learned that our installation had been cancelled. No one from Kayak had contacted us about the installation being cancelled. This was the beginning of the project management and installation coordination having to be managed by us. We also learned our installation had been reassigned to Mark. When **** didnt call us to reschedule, we finally reached Kayak only to learn that **** was no longer going to do our installation and it had been reassigned to ************* On June 14, ****** called to say he would be doing our installation June 15-17. On June 15, ****** failed to show. On June 16, ****** showed up and did a hard bottom installation that requires three full days in just 2 days. Kayak told us the hard bottom would have to cure for 48 hours before the liner could be installed. Instead of waiting 48 hours,****** waited about 16 hours and then installed the liner. Several parts were missing and ****** said he would return on June 22 to finish our installation. He also forgot to turn off the water and left the hose running in our pool when he departed which we only discovered the next morning when we saw water gushing from the pool. At that point, the additional water soaking the already still-wet concrete caused an immediate failure of the hardbottom. Again, we managed the installation process by inserting a portable sump pump to lower the water level, and we also had to dig two trenches to divert the water away from the pool. On June 22, ****** was a no-show again. We then learned ****** would not be returning until July 5. On July 1, we entered the pool and discovered rough, sharp rocks pushing up into the vinyl throughout the shallow end. The rocks were pointed and painful to walk on, and there were several pockets of deep divots that were slick and could cause someone to lose their balance in the water. The pool was NOT safe to swim in. On July 5, we learned ****** would now not be returning until July 6. On July 6,****** advised us that the hard bottom failure was 100% his fault and that he would have to bust out the hard bottom. He said the existing liner could not be used again once he removed it so he would have to buy a new liner for us out of his own pocket, and he said he hoped Kayak would give him a good deal on the purchase. He said he would also have to pay for the installation of the new hard bottom himself, and he would also have to pay to have the pool refilled. He then said he would not be able to return and redo the installation until the Fall. We told him that was not acceptable because we could not safely use the pool. After finally reaching Kayak on July 12, Kayak said ****** told them there were just a few rocks sticking up and that no new liner would be needed. Despite ******* acknowledgement that the pool bottom had failed and a new liner would be required, Kayak told us we would NOT be getting a new liner, and since the pool wasnt leaking, Kayak had deemed it safe to swim in. We requested someone from Kayak come out and observe the pool themselves, and Kayak said no. Kayak also said ****** would not be coming to fix the pool until Fall. Consequently, we requested another installer be assigned to immediately fix the pool. Kayak said they could assign a new installer,but no matter who did it, the pool would still not be fixed until Fall. We tried to escalate the issue to the installation manager and our salesperson,but they would not respond. On July 12,we tracked down ******, and he said he would be here on July 28 or 29, but he said he would only be peeling back the liner, busting out the hard bottom,installing a new hard bottom, and then he would be reinstalling the old liner. When we told ****** he had already told us the liner could not be reused, he said it could be reused and then if it failed, it would be covered under warranty. Of course, allowing the liner to fail would only extend the time we could not use our pool, and it would leave us with the task of draining the pool, paying for the labor to have the warrantied new liner installed, and then pay ourselves to have the pool filled again. When ****** returned on July 29 and pulled back the liner, the hard bottom was crumbling in many places and was still not dry. ****** offered to scrape out the rocks and patch the crumbing areas and divots with concrete. He said as an alternative, we could wait for Kayak to send someone out to reinstall the pool. He said regardless of which option we chose, the entire cost would fall to him. We told him we did not want a patch job on the expensive hard bottom which was an upgrade we had paid for, and we told him we did not want him to reuse a liner that he already told us could NOT be reused. ****** said he would contact Kayak immediately and let them know the pool needed to be reinstalled. After hearing nothing from Kayak, we reached out to both ****** and the installation manager but neither one responded.

On August 6, after having exhausted all attempts to reach Kayak, we filed complaints with both the Indiana Better Business Bureau and the Indiana ************************* On August 7, Kayak called in response to the BBB complaint and said they would be in touch regarding installing a new hard bottom sometime that week. They did not call. Right before close of business on August 11, we called Kayak and insisted on a return call. After much back and forth, on August 15,******* called to say he would be reinstalling the pool beginning August 21. On August 16, ******* called to reschedule the installation for August 20. On August 19, ******* showed up unannounced. He said Kayak had calculated that it would take 62 bags of Poolcrete to repour our hard bottom and that we would have to store it somewhere completely dry so it wouldnt get ruined if it rained. We moved our car from the garage and allowed him to store the Poolcrete there. On August 20, ******* arrived and removed the crumbling hard bottom and the liner. Because ******* said he had no way to dispose of the old hard bottom, the liner, or the other trash, it fell upon us to take care of the entire site cleanup. *****, Kayaks installation head, came out to observe the work, and he noted that ****** had clearly been in too much of a hurry and pointed out many areas of very poor workmanship. ***** stated that ******* many mistakes had caused the hardbottom to fail. ******* mentioned that while installing the new liner, he had to remove the electric conduit from the lights so he could remove the lights and reinstall them. ******* said he would not replace the conduit and that we would have to hire an electrician to do that work. Since it was Kayaks fault that the conduit had to be removed, it should fall on Kayak to hire the electrician to reinstall it. ******* then announced he was leaving. ***** asked him to first fix the two malfunctioning but critically important safety gates. ******* discovered that ****** had not even put the screws in one to hold it onto the railing. ******* fixed that one but he could not fix the other one because the water delivery hose was still in place. He showed ***** how to fix the remaining gate once the hose was gone. ***** also asked him to reinstall the pool steps and to install the ladder before leaving. Parts were missing so the ladder could not be installed. ******* said he would order the parts from Kayak, have them shipped to us directly, and then we were to call ******* and schedule his return ourselves. ******* said he could not reinstall the pool steps because they weighed several hundred pounds and there was only six inches of water in the pool at the time. ***** advised that he would not be able to move the stairs himself and asked ******* to stay. ******* and crew then dragged the pool stairs across the deck making deep scratches, and installed the stairs when there was only 8 inches of water. ******* then headed to his vehicle again. ***** stopped him and asked him if he was going to clean the pool deck which was absolutely filthy, and he said no, that was up to Kayak. ***** asked him if he was going to take the 47 bags of Poolcrete leftover, and ******* said no, that was also up to Kayak. At this point ***** continued his role as project manager, supervising completion of the pool filling, switching the valves, checking for leaks, and using his tractor to move the pallets of Poolcrete and having to clear space in our garage so he could secure a dry place to store the 47 bags and so we could park in our garage again. We decided to clean the deck ourselves so we could use the pool, but it turned out the deck was not covered in dirt but was actually covered in Poolcrete. It cannot be removed from the deck.

Having still heard nothing from Kayak, we filed another complaint with the BBB on September 17 because the missing parts for the ladder had still not been delivered, no one had picked up the 47 bags of Poolcrete,and no one from Kayak had even looked at the pool since it had just 8 inches of water in it. Hard bottoms are a brand new option at Kayak, and it seems clear that either one of two things happened: 1) no one at Kayak has any idea how much Poolcrete it takes to install a hard bottom so they have no experience yet doing them; or 2) the hard bottom was done incorrectly again, and the surface is much thinner than it should be. Kayak had the pool water delivered on August 26, and it took 6 days for the water to warm up enough with the solar cover to even think about getting in. That brought us to August 30, and the traditional time to close a swimming pool in ******* is Labor Day weekend. Although Kayak had known since at least November 2022 that having a full 2023 swim season was a firm condition of our purchase, we lost the entire season of swimming, while Kayak has enjoyed the use of our $11,495 since February 14, and also enjoyed the use of our $41,174 since May 8. On June 17, we paid Kayak the final $1,000. Kayak will have profited from our $53,669 for about 18 months before we are finally able to enjoy swimming in our pool in May/June 2024.

We DISAGREE that the contract explicitly states, Customer understands the current timeline of Early/Mid-Summer 2023 installation, subject to weather,financing, and unforeseen circumstances, based on the installation checklist date. The contract actually states, Customer understands current timeline of Early/Mid Summer 2023 installation pending weather,financing, and any MAJOR unforeseen circumstances (emphasis added). Clearly, MAJOR unforeseen circumstances are very different than unforeseen circumstances. Please note that ******* enjoyed excellent pool installation weather this year, we paid cash for the pool, and Kayaks refusal to communicate by constantly ignoring telephone calls, voice mails, text messages and emails for months is NOT a MAJOR unforeseen circumstance. In addition, Kayaks failure to properly install our pool and subsequent refusal to mitigate the failure of the hard bottom was NOT a MAJOR unforeseen circumstance. It is instead evidence of Kayaks clear pattern of deceptive business practices. A business cannot include a catchall phrase like MAJOR unforeseen circumstances and then use it as a pretext to constantly and consistently breach contracts willy-nilly.

Our agreement with Kayak included Kayak managing and being responsible for the pool installation. We have spent the past five months managing and coordinating the entire installation process. We made endless telephone calls, left voice mail messages, sent emails and sent texts, only to be repeatedly ignored until the entire summer went by. We had to reach out to the installers ourselves to try to get on their schedules, and we spent the entire spring and summer birddogging the whole process.

I had originally intended to print documentation of Kayaks consistent pattern of taking a customers money and then pretending the customer doesnt exist, but there were far too many examples! A cursory review of the dozens of complaints filed with the ******* BBB provides clear and convincing evidence of their business pattern. It is worth noting that when we filed our complaint with the BBB, the BBB had a red box warning that Kayak Pools Midwest had lost its accreditation because Kayak had been telling customers that it would only fix problems that had been filed as complaints with the BBB if the customer first told the ******************** that the complaint had already been fully resolved by Kayak! In other words, they were using extortion to try to improve the number of unresolved BBB complaints displayed on the BBBs website. In addition, a cursory review of discussions about Kayak Pools Midwest on ******** reveals additional evidence that they take a customers money and then go radio silent as a matter of business practice.

On September 19, Kayak finally had a vendor pick up the remaining bags of concrete from our garage. He took 46 of the 47 bags, leaving one to spill all over our garage floor. Once again, we were tasked with cleaning up Kayaks mess.

As resolution, we requested Kayak either clean/repair the deck or replace it. Kayak has now agreed to replace the damaged decking as long as we provide photos and as long as we go out and figure out exactly how many pieces of the deck need to be replaced, as well as their dimensions, as the sizes vary. They have also agreed to supply the missing parts as long as we figure out which parts are missing and provide them with a list. Continuing in our role as project manager for installation of the pool, we will do our best to figure out both of those things for Kayak. In addition, we already provided Kayak with photos of the deck concrete stains and deep scratches, but we will go to the effort of once again gathering the evidence since they have not bothered to look at the documentation we have already provided.

Kayak has offered to pay for additional charges to our water bill. Once again, it is clear that Kayak did not bother to read our complaint carefully as were not asking for separate compensation for our water bill. We were simply trying to help them understand a piece of why their hard bottom failed.

As further resolution and given the extremely poor workmanship previously provided by Kayak, we had requested that someone at Kayak perform a final inspection of the pool since they were hands off throughout the entire installation process. Kayak responded that Its important to note that the customers checklist indicates that they did not contract us to obtain their permit. In this case, Mr. and *************** are responsible for initiating the inspection process themselves. Obviously, we obtained our own pool permit from the city back in February, and we obtained our own final inspection from the city ourselves in August. What is actually important to note is that we find it intellectually incredible that with nearly half a year of complaints from us under their belt, Kayak was still unable to grasp that we think someone from Kayak should personally take a gander at their finished product and inspect it for completion. But fear not, we will continue to carefully keep an eye on our finished pool in the best way a ****** can. After all, we WERE responsible for the installation!

Our final request for resolution is that Kayak to provide us a refund of $15,000 to compensate us for Kayaks breach of contract; for Kayak failing to properly, fully and promptly install our pool; for our loss of enjoyment of an entire year of swimming despite Kayak having agreed to early/mid-Summer installation as a condition of the contract; for the loss of the benefit of our use of our $53,669 for ***** months; for the time used, energy spent and emotional distress suffered in the many months of trying to force Kayak to perform their end of the contract; for causing our water bill to rise while overflowing our pool; for using our garage for storage; for requiring us to get our tractor and move ************************************************************ it; for requiring us to handle disposal of their trash, the old hard bottom and the old liner; for requiring us to position the valves correctly post-installation; for requiring us to fix the safety gates; and for requiring us to be responsible for the majority of the project management and coordination involved in installation of the pool.

Obviously, if we had known that we were going to be responsible for managing and coordinating the entire installation process, we would have simply purchased a pool and then installed it ourselves. It would have involved far less time and far less heartache, it would have been installed in May, we would have enjoyed a full season of swimming, and it would have saved us TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS!

Customer response
10/05/2023
Better Business Bureau:

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined the response would not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.

[Provide details of why you are not satisfied with this resolution.]
As requested, please see the attached rebuttal to Kayaks response to our complaint.

*In the interest of brevity, please note that we have omitted the extensive documentation of how many times Kayak refused to respond to telephone calls, voice mails, emails or text messages over a five-month period. Because it is critical to understanding the length and breadth of Kayaks breach of contract through their absolute refusal to communicate, their absolute refusal to install our pool in a timely manner as required by the contract terms, and their absolute refusal to mitigate their own poor workmanship, please refer back to our original complaint filed August 6, 2023, for such details.

We disagree that the original install date for the pool was June 10, 2023. The original install date for the pool was May 29 with ***** and crew. On May 23, we inadvertently learned that our installation had been cancelled. No one from Kayak had contacted us about the installation being cancelled. This was the beginning of the project management and installation coordination having to be managed by us. We also learned our installation had been reassigned to Mark. When **** didnt call us to reschedule, we finally reached Kayak only to learn that **** was no longer going to do our installation and it had been reassigned to ************* On June 14, ****** called to say he would be doing our installation June 15-17. On June 15, ****** failed to show. On June 16, ****** showed up and did a hard bottom installation that requires three full days in just 2 days. Kayak told us the hard bottom would have to cure for 48 hours before the liner could be installed. Instead of waiting 48 hours, ****** waited about 16 hours and then installed the liner. Several parts were missing and ****** said he would return on June 22 to finish our installation. He also forgot to turn off the water and left the hose running in our pool when he departed which we only discovered the next morning when we saw water gushing from the pool. At that point, the additional water soaking the already still-wet concrete caused an immediate failure of the hardbottom. Again, we managed the installation process by inserting a portable sump pump to lower the water level, and we also had to dig two trenches to divert the water away from the pool. On June 22, ****** was a no-show again. We then learned ****** would not be returning until July 5. On July 1, we entered the pool and discovered rough, sharp rocks pushing up into the vinyl throughout the shallow end. The rocks were pointed and painful to walk on, and there were several pockets of deep divots that were slick and could cause someone to lose their balance in the water. The pool was NOT safe to swim in. On July 5, we learned ****** would now not be returning until July 6. On July 6, ****** advised us that the hard bottom failure was 100% his fault and that he would have to bust out the hard bottom. He said the existing liner could not be used again once he removed it so he would have to buy a new liner for us out of his own pocket, and he said he hoped Kayak would give him a good deal on the purchase. He said he would also have to pay for the installation of the new hard bottom himself, and he would also have to pay to have the pool refilled. He then said he would not be able to return and redo the installation until the Fall. We told him that was not acceptable because we could not safely use the pool. After finally reaching Kayak on July 12, Kayak said ****** told them there were just a few rocks sticking up and that no new liner would be needed. Despite ******* acknowledgement that the pool bottom had failed and a new liner would be required, Kayak told us we would NOT be getting a new liner, and since the pool wasnt leaking, Kayak had deemed it safe to swim in. We requested someone from Kayak come out and observe the pool themselves, and Kayak said no. Kayak also said ****** would not be coming to fix the pool until Fall. Consequently, we requested another installer be assigned to immediately fix the pool. Kayak said they could assign a new installer, but no matter who did it, the pool would still not be fixed until Fall. We tried to escalate the issue to the installation manager and our salesperson, but they would not respond. On July 12, we tracked down ******, and he said he would be here on July 28 or 29, but he said he would only be peeling back the liner, busting out the hard bottom, installing a new hard bottom, and then he would be reinstalling the old liner. When we told ****** he had already told us the liner could not be reused, he said it could be reused and then if it failed, it would be covered under warranty. Of course, allowing the liner to fail would only extend the time we could not use our pool, and it would leave us with the task of draining the pool, paying for the labor to have the warrantied new liner installed, and then pay ourselves to have the pool filled again. When ****** returned on July 29 and pulled back the liner, the hard bottom was crumbling in many places and was still not dry. ****** offered to scrape out the rocks and patch the crumbing areas and divots with concrete. He said as an alternative, we could wait for Kayak to send someone out to reinstall the pool. He said regardless of which option we chose, the entire cost would fall to him. We told him we did not want a patch job on the expensive hard bottom which was an upgrade we had paid for, and we told him we did not want him to reuse a liner that he already told us could NOT be reused. ****** said he would contact Kayak immediately and let them know the pool needed to be reinstalled. After hearing nothing from Kayak, we reached out to both ****** and the installation manager but neither one responded.

On August 6, after having exhausted all attempts to reach Kayak, we filed complaints with both the Indiana Better Business Bureau and the Indiana ************************* On August 7, Kayak called in response to the BBB complaint and said they would be in touch regarding installing a new hard bottom sometime that week. They did not call. Right before close of business on August 11, we called Kayak and insisted on a return call. After much back and forth, on August 15, ******* called to say he would be reinstalling the pool beginning August 21. On August 16, ******* called to reschedule the installation for August 20. On August 19, ******* showed up unannounced. He said Kayak had calculated that it would take 62 bags of Poolcrete to repour our hard bottom and that we would have to store it somewhere completely dry so it wouldnt get ruined if it rained. We moved our car from the garage and allowed him to store the Poolcrete there. On August 20, ******* arrived and removed the crumbling hard bottom and the liner. Because ******* said he had no way to dispose of the old hard bottom, the liner, or the other trash, it fell upon us to take care of the entire site cleanup. *****, Kayaks installation head, came out to observe the work, and he noted that ****** had clearly been in too much of a hurry and pointed out many areas of very poor workmanship. ***** stated that ******* many mistakes had caused the hardbottom to fail. ******* mentioned that while installing the new liner, he had to remove the electric conduit from the lights so he could remove the lights and reinstall them. ******* said he would not replace the conduit and that we would have to hire an electrician to do that work. Since it was Kayaks fault that the conduit had to be removed, it should fall on Kayak to hire the electrician to reinstall it. ******* then announced he was leaving. ***** asked him to first fix the two malfunctioning but critically important safety gates. ******* discovered that ****** had not even put the screws in one to hold it onto the railing. ******* fixed that one but he could not fix the other one because the water delivery hose was still in place. He showed ***** how to fix the remaining gate once the hose was gone. ***** also asked him to reinstall the pool steps and to install the ladder before leaving. Parts were missing so the ladder could not be installed. ******* said he would order the parts from Kayak, have them shipped to us directly, and then we were to call ******* and schedule his return ourselves. ******* said he could not reinstall the pool steps because they weighed several hundred pounds and there was only six inches of water in the pool at the time. ***** advised that he would not be able to move the stairs himself and asked ******* to stay. ******* and crew then dragged the pool stairs across the deck making deep scratches, and installed the stairs when there was only 8 inches of water. ******* then headed to his vehicle again. ***** stopped him and asked him if he was going to clean the pool deck which was absolutely filthy, and he said no, that was up to Kayak. ***** asked him if he was going to take the 47 bags of Poolcrete leftover, and ******* said no, that was also up to Kayak. At this point ***** continued his role as project manager, supervising completion of the pool filling, switching the valves, checking for leaks, and using his tractor to move the pallets of Poolcrete and having to clear space in our garage so he could secure a dry place to store the 47 bags and so we could park in our garage again. We decided to clean the deck ourselves so we could use the pool, but it turned out the deck was not covered in dirt but was actually covered in Poolcrete. It cannot be removed from the deck.

Having still heard nothing from Kayak, we filed another complaint with the BBB on September 17 because the missing parts for the ladder had still not been delivered, no one had picked up the 47 bags of Poolcrete, and no one from Kayak had even looked at the pool since it had just 8 inches of water in it. Hard bottoms are a brand new option at Kayak, and it seems clear that either one of two things happened: 1) no one at Kayak has any idea how much Poolcrete it takes to install a hard bottom so they have no experience yet doing them; or 2) the hard bottom was done incorrectly again, and the surface is much thinner than it should be. Kayak had the pool water delivered on August 26, and it took 6 days for the water to warm up enough with the solar cover to even think about getting in. That brought us to August 30, and the traditional time to close a swimming pool in ******* is Labor Day weekend. Although Kayak had known since at least November 2022 that having a full 2023 swim season was a firm condition of our purchase, we lost the entire season of swimming, while Kayak has enjoyed the use of our $11,495 since February 14, and also enjoyed the use of our $41,174 since May 8. On June 17, we paid Kayak the final $1,000. Kayak will have profited from our $53,669 for about 18 months before we are finally able to enjoy swimming in our pool in May/June 2024.

We DISAGREE that the contract explicitly states, Customer understands the current timeline of Early/Mid-Summer 2023 installation, subject to weather, financing, and unforeseen circumstances, based on the installation checklist date. The contract actually states, Customer understands current timeline of Early/Mid Summer 2023 installation pending weather, financing, and any MAJOR unforeseen circumstances (emphasis added). Clearly, MAJOR unforeseen circumstances are very different than unforeseen circumstances. Please note that ******* enjoyed excellent pool installation weather this year, we paid cash for the pool, and Kayaks refusal to communicate by constantly ignoring telephone calls, voice mails, text messages and emails for months is NOT a MAJOR unforeseen circumstance. In addition, Kayaks failure to properly install our pool and subsequent refusal to mitigate the failure of the hard bottom was NOT a MAJOR unforeseen circumstance. It is instead evidence of Kayaks clear pattern of deceptive business practices. A business cannot include a catchall phrase like MAJOR unforeseen circumstances and then use it as a pretext to constantly and consistently breach contracts willy-nilly.

Our agreement with Kayak included Kayak managing and being responsible for the pool installation. We have spent the past five months managing and coordinating the entire installation process. We made endless telephone calls, left voice mail messages, sent emails and sent texts, only to be repeatedly ignored until the entire summer went by. We had to reach out to the installers ourselves to try to get on their schedules, and we spent the entire spring and summer birddogging the whole process.

I had originally intended to print documentation of Kayaks consistent pattern of taking a customers money and then pretending the customer doesnt exist, but there were far too many examples! A cursory review of the dozens of complaints filed with the Indiana BBB provides clear and convincing evidence of their business pattern. It is worth noting that when we filed our complaint with the BBB, the BBB had a red box warning that Kayak Pools Midwest had lost its accreditation because Kayak had been telling customers that it would only fix problems that had been filed as complaints with the BBB if the customer first told the ******************** that the complaint had already been fully resolved by Kayak! In other words, they were using extortion to try to improve the number of unresolved BBB complaints displayed on the BBBs website. In addition, a cursory review of discussions about Kayak Pools Midwest on ******** reveals additional evidence that they take a customers money and then go radio silent as a matter of business practice.

On September 19, Kayak finally had a vendor pick up the remaining bags of concrete from our garage. He took 46 of the 47 bags, leaving one to spill all over our garage floor. Once again, we were tasked with cleaning up Kayaks mess.

As resolution, we requested Kayak either clean/repair the deck or replace it. Kayak has now agreed to replace the damaged decking as long as we provide photos and as long as we go out and figure out exactly how many pieces of the deck need to be replaced, as well as their dimensions, as the sizes vary. They have also agreed to supply the missing parts as long as we figure out which parts are missing and provide them with a list. Continuing in our role as project manager for installation of the pool, we will do our best to figure out both of those things for Kayak. In addition, we already provided Kayak with photos of the deck concrete stains and deep scratches, but we will go to the effort of once again gathering the evidence since they have not bothered to look at the documentation we have already provided.

Kayak has offered to pay for additional charges to our water bill. Once again, it is clear that Kayak did not bother to read our complaint carefully as were not asking for separate compensation for our water bill. We were simply trying to help them understand a piece of why their hard bottom failed.

As further resolution and given the extremely poor workmanship previously provided by Kayak, we had requested that someone at Kayak perform a final inspection of the pool since they were hands off throughout the entire installation process. Kayak responded that Its important to note that the customers checklist indicates that they did not contract us to obtain their permit. In this case, Mr. and *************** are responsible for initiating the inspection process themselves. Obviously, we obtained our own pool permit from the city back in February, and we obtained our own final inspection from the city ourselves in August. What is actually important to note is that we find it intellectually incredible that with nearly half a year of complaints from us under their belt, Kayak was still unable to grasp that we think someone from Kayak should personally take a gander at their finished product and inspect it for completion. But fear not, we will continue to carefully keep an eye on our finished pool in the best way a ****** can. After all, we WERE responsible for the installation!

Our final request for resolution is that Kayak to provide us a refund of $15,000 to compensate us for Kayaks breach of contract; for Kayak failing to properly, fully and promptly install our pool; for our loss of enjoyment of an entire year of swimming despite Kayak having agreed to early/mid-Summer installation as a condition of the contract; for the loss of the benefit of our use of our $53,669 for ***** months; for the time used, energy spent and emotional distress suffered in the many months of trying to force Kayak to perform their end of the contract; for causing our water bill to rise while overflowing our pool; for using our garage for storage; for requiring us to get our tractor and move ************************************************************ it; for requiring us to handle disposal of their trash, the old hard bottom and the old liner; for requiring us to position the valves correctly post-installation; for requiring us to fix the safety gates; and for requiring us to be responsible for the majority of the project management and coordination involved in installation of the pool.

Obviously, if we had known that we were going to be responsible for managing and coordinating the entire installation process, we would have simply purchased a pool and then installed it ourselves. It would have involved far less time and far less heartache, it would have been installed in May, we would have enjoyed a full season of swimming, and it would have saved us TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS!

Regards,

*********************

Customer response
10/10/2023
As a supplement to our rebuttal of October 4, 2023, please see the following attached documents in support of our complaint that Kayak Pools Midwest has a clear pattern of deceptive business practices and a clear pattern of breaching contracts while using the MAJOR unforeseen circumstancesclause as a pretext for taking a customers money and then going radio silent,resulting in Kayaks failure to perform as required by the contract. In addition, you will note that in response to complaints, Kayak falls back on their annual Fall/Winter closure of the business as the reason why they cannot resolve customer complaints until the following Spring. Once Kayak has entered into a contract that requires their performance, they should not close shop for the Fall/Winter seasons when there is much work still to be done in order to honor the contracts they have signed.

Google Reviews of Kayak Pools Midwest for October 2022 through October 2023. Reviews are sorted chronologically by the most recent review. All reviews are included whether positive or negative in nature.

BBB ******* Complaints regarding Kayak Pools Midwest All complaints available on the website as of October 10, 2023, are attached. There are 60 complaints in the last three years, with 11 closed in the last 12 months. Please note the BBBs red box warning resulting in Kayaks BBB revocation. We captured that warning in a screen shot on August 7, 2023, and it is referenced repeatedly in customer complaints. We do not see that warning on the BBBs website today. We looked up three of the largest pool installers in Central ******* and note that Pools of Fun has had 3 complaints in the past 3 years and 5 customer reviews resulting in a rating of 1 out of 5 stars, Angies Pools has had 1 complaint in the past 3 years and no reviews and therefore no star rating, and Family Leisure has had 9 complaints in the past 3 years and 3 reviews resulting in a rating of 1 out of 5 stars. These ratings are not surprising because one typically only contacts the BBB if you are unhappy. We find it interesting that Kayak Pools Midwest has had 60 complaints in the past 3 years and yet 150 reviews so positive that their rating is 4.11 out of 5 stars.

******** posts from the Official Kayak Pools Owner Group regarding Kayak Pools Midwest. Posts are sorted chronologically by the most recent review. All comments on the group page regarding Kayak Pools Midwest as of October 10, 2023 are included. It appears the group was not formed until approximately May 1, 2023. Please note that there are multiple references to people being blocked from ******** groups re Kayak once negative comments have been made. All comments to the posts are included whether positive or negative in nature. Please note that with all of the negative posts about Kayak Pools Midwest, there are almost no positive comments in reply and very little reporting of positive experiences in reply. However, with the single exception of the July 8, 2023, post from ********************, there was a swarm of 20+ positive comments supporting Kayak Pools Midwest. We find it interesting that there was massive Kayak support on a single post, most within a single two-week period.

We appreciate your kind assistance with this matter.
Initial Complaint
07/20/2023
Complaint Type:
Delivery Issues
Status:
Answered
The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.
April-***** we ordered a pool from Kayak Pools Midwest, we were told a delivery date of mid July 2023. We were told our pool is done being manufactured, its ready for delivery yet we cannot get ANYONE to give us a delivery date. Not one single person will give us a delivery date, everyone passes the buck. Weve gotten no answers at all. All we get is youll get an email by end of business day but it never comes. We have a child with 2 disabilities, we are solely getting this pool for his therapy. We put a large sum of money down on the pool in the beginning of this process as they said it was required to assemble the pool. They will give us no answers they just brush us off
Business response
07/31/2023
We have been in communication with this customer throughout the last several weeks. The reason their delivery was delayed was because they had not submitted a copy of their permit to our office. We have to have a permit on file in order to deliver the pool. **************** was working on securing the permit and once he sent it in to ** we got the pool delivered within a week. Our standard delivery timeline is 2 weeks, but we got his pool delivered sooner for him once we received the permit. His pool was delivered last week. Thank you!
Customer response
08/01/2023
They have delivered our pool and is set for installation tomorrow, as long as the terms are met and installation is completed in the 3 to 4 day timeframe as in the terms of the contract that will be satisfactory
Customer response
08/14/2023

(There are several issues, things that are broken, things that werent done, things that were taken by installer from our pool package. This is the letter I sent several times with no answer back yet)
The leak is getting bigger and faster I need this fixed along with the other issues. In green that is not a ball valve that is a check valve for the strainer. It only shuts off the drains from the bottom of the pool and the strainer. So we need 2 shut offs on the returns so we can isolate the heater, the chlorinator and the returns, if do not get these shut off valves put in like they were supposed to be and therefore we cant winterize the pool properly when the time comes and that will be soon! 2ndly in our package there are 2 return ports and one light. The 2nd return port was supposed to be installed in the opposite end of the pool to give the pool some circulation, we specifically ordered 2 return ports for that reason. We have them both but one has not been installed. We need that corrected. Adding our light doesnt mean that eliminates a 2nd return that we bought in our pool package and paid for to be installed. Thank you for ordering the flex pipe, let me know asap about the filter top casing. We do need that 2nd port that we bought in our pool package installed so let me know ASAP when that will be installed. I need these issues addressed immediately, I havent heard anything back from you
Business response
08/25/2023
We apologize for any inconvenience you've experienced with your recent pool order. There seems to be some confusion regarding the return ports included with your purchase. We want to assure you that we've already been in contact with you to discuss this matter. Our installation manager has ordered replacement parts, which will be shipped directly to you for your convenience. Thank you for your patience as we work to resolve this matter promptly. Your satisfaction is important to us.
Customer response
08/28/2023
Kayak pools has not addressed the matter of the second port that should have been installed and that we paid for. Secondly that did not install the water walls that we paid for therefore will not sustain the integrity of the pool walls. Its just bare wood, we paid for Gray water walls to be put around 3 sides of the pool and was not done pics included
Customer response
08/29/2023
Better Business Bureau:

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined the response would not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.

[Provide details of why you are not satisfied with this resolution.]
From the CONSUMER:
Sent 8/28/2023 10:43:07 AM
Kayak pools has not addressed the matter of the second port that should have been installed and that we paid for. Secondly that did not install the water walls that we paid for therefore will not sustain the integrity of the pool walls. Its just bare wood, we paid for Gray water walls to be put around 3 sides of the pool and was not done pics included

Regards,

***********************

Business response
08/30/2023
The ****** have raised issues concerning the second return listed on their packing list and the installation of pool walls. Firstly, it is important to note that the second return listed on the packing list is intended for the installation of an LED light, as explained to ***** by our installation manager. Upon reviewing the customer's signed contract and checklist, we found no record of an additional return being requested. Regarding the pool walls, our pools are designed with walls that have one side white and the other gray, serving as essential components for supporting the deck. These walls are installed between the top and bottom channels. To protect these walls from dirt and backfill material, which is crucial for maintaining the warranty's validity, we install plywood on the exterior. The warranty clearly states that backfilling directly against the walls is not allowed. For this specific installation, the customer opted for a ****** recess with a ****** slope dig. Accordingly, plywood was installed to accommodate this requirement, enabling the customer to backfill to the specified height. It's important to note that a gap intentionally exists between the plywood and the wall to prevent any material from being placed directly against the walls, which would violate the warranty guidelines. I have included the ******' signed contract, checklist and a photo of the ******' walls during installation for review.
Initial Complaint
04/15/2023
Complaint Type:
Service or Repair Issues
Status:
Answered
The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.
Good morning,My husband has been trying to get ahold of someone to fix the issue with our Kayak pool since last summer. (7/26/2022). My husband has sent numerous emails and gets no response or a response to send a picture and no one will follow up. We have paid for the repairs, new walls, new liner, lines/pipes, etc. But ***** who installed the new liner, drains, ************* on 7/20/2022. We had the water brought in the next day and paid $500 for that. We noticed the water level was dropping at a fast pace and found out the pipe was cracked because ***** DID NOT replace ALL the pipes that we paid to have him replace (you can see the new lines are bright white and the old lines/pipes are not). We took a video and sent it to him on 7/26/ 2022- he said to plug the drains and run it off the skimmer until he could come out and fix. We cannot get ahold of anyone!! Weve put $10,000 into replacing this pool and no one will get back to us. We just want our pool fixed but we cannot get anyone to get back with us!! Please contact us ASAP!!I have included pictures of the pool, texts with ***** the ***************** of the ************************************* ********************************************************** **We also have a video of the leak**
Business response
04/17/2023
The service manager has been in contact with ******* regarding the issues with his Kayak Pool. As per their discussion, we have ordered a new liner for their pool and will have it shipped to their home. Additionally, we will replace the water to fill the pool. We have also notified *****, and he will contact ******* within the next couple of weeks to schedule the repair work.
Regarding the return of the walls, once we pull the liner back and confirm that new walls are not needed, ******* has been directed to contact Kayak ******** directly to arrange the return of the walls. We have provided the customer with the contact information for ********************** ********.
Initial Complaint
01/27/2023
Complaint Type:
Order Issues
Status:
Answered
The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.
Paid almost 15k as a deposit and something has came up that was out of my control which is causing me not to be able to proceed with my pool install. Nothing has been done on my property nor do I even have an install date. I was told I would lose all of my deposit verbally by a person from marketing. I dont think its fair to keep all of someones deposit with no clause that says its a non refundable deposit.
Business response
02/03/2023
Kayak understands that the ****** experienced some unexpected circumstances that have prevented them from proceeding with the installation of their pool. However, please be advised that according to the attached contract signed by the ******, their cancellation of the pool order or any other breach of the agreement will cause substantial damage to Kayak Pools Midwest. Per the agreement, If they cancel the pool order due to their fault, they agree to pay liquidated damages equal to all monies paid or 15% of the total price of the pool, whichever is greater, unless a lesser amount is agree upon. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. We are available to discuss the terms and conditions of the contract further if needed.
Initial Complaint
01/26/2023
Complaint Type:
Delivery Issues
Status:
Resolved
The complainant verified the issue was resolved to their satisfaction.
We had a pool installed by kayak pools in august of 2022. During the initial Installation stairs were installed, as we paid extra for those. In about September 2022 an identical set of stairs were delivered to our house by katak pools, even though we already received ours and they were installed. We did not receive notification by kayak or any shipping companies and did not authorize this delivery. Immediately we reached out to kayak pools midwest and spoke to ****** via email. She initially responded stating that she would look into it. 30 days later I sent another email to her and she stated she would email with more information. Late december 2022 I emailed her as I had not heard anything, and let her know she could either let ke know the date they would be picking up the stairs (they are huge, on a pallet, and taking up our driveway) or a number to someone besides her I can speak to. We still have received nothing. We are stuck now with these huge stairs in ur driveway that Kayak will not pick up, and we cant move on our own and are fearful if we did, they might be harmed. Please help!
Business response
01/31/2023
We do apologize for the delayed response. Kayak will be contacting ***************** today to arrange pick up of the steps this week.
Customer response
02/03/2023
Better Business Bureau:
I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and find that this response/resolution is satisfactory to me.

Kayak followed up right away and have removed the steps from our driveway. Thank you!
Regards,
*******************
Initial Complaint
01/24/2023
Complaint Type:
Service or Repair Issues
Status:
Resolved
The complainant verified the issue was resolved to their satisfaction.
On October 14, 2022 Kayak Pools Midwest began the installation process of an above ground pool. The crew was not very experienced in the process. On Saturday, October 15, 2022 prior to the pool being filled with water I clearly pointed out the pool was not level. I was told it was and the pool was filled with over ****** gallons of water. The pool was not level by about 3 1/2 inches. It took in excess of a week to get any response from Kayak regarding the plan of correction. In the meantime I was told by the supervisor on the install that the company could not secure someone to siphon off the water. I was able to secure a company to pump the water out at a cost of $2,800. The install supervisor instructed me to engage that company and I did. I was told by that supervisor that since this was a result of the pool not being level that Kayak would reimburse me for my out of pocket expenses. I have made repeated attempts at getting this resolved including emailing the company and invoice for the services with 2 options. Option 1: Reimburse me $2,800 and I would then return $1,000 for the final payment on the purchase. Option 2: Reimburse me $1,800 and we are even. Another employee named ***** came to correct the matter and, in fact, discovered at least 2 other installation issues.
Business response
02/02/2023
**************** was instructed by our employee to secure a water truck and Kayak would reimburse him. We appreciate the assistance in acquiring the truck and apologize that it has taken us a moment to get this resolved. Kayak agrees to ****************************** option 2. We have adjusted the final payment of $1000 off of ****************************** account. He will be receiving a payment of $1800 within 7 to 10 business days.
Customer response
02/02/2023
Better Business Bureau:
I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and find that this response/resolution is satisfactory to me.

Regards,
***************************
Initial Complaint
12/18/2022
Complaint Type:
Service or Repair Issues
Status:
Answered
The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.
Unfortunately, I did not have enough characters to completely layout my complaint and the issues I've been having with Kayak Pools Midwest. Please see the attached PDF document for my full complaint and the issues we have encountered with Kayak. Also attached are images and documentation to show some evidence of my complaint/the lack of work being completed by Kayak.
Business response
12/28/2022
We are truly sorry that the client is upset with their experience. If they would like someone else to come back out and re-do pool school with them we would be happy to send someone out to do that with them again more thoroughly. They did receive a salt system for their pool. The installer is correct, we do not have design representatives and I am not sure what that is, if you can please show me the email or message where ***** mentioned that I will absolutely speak with him about that.

Dirt removal and backfilling is almost always significantly cheaper to do yourself vs paying our contractors to complete this. We charge over $11,000 retail for that service. Yard damage is something we discuss in-depth and are very forthcoming that it will be severe as this is major construction. As for the water, I do know for a fact that ***** did not tell the client that the fire department would guaranteed fill it for free, because ***** informs all of his clients that he recommends reaching out to your local fire department to see if they would be willing to fill up the pool for a donation,but that not all fire departments can do that, it is simply a suggestion. Also,the client was made aware that trucking water does cost around that amount, as this was one of the services that pricing was listen on our powerpoint (the same place as the pricing for the backfill and dirt removal) and the cost we charge to do this service is over $1,000 so this should have been less than expected. I have attached the slide in our powerpoint that very in-depth goes over all extras and gives costs, this is discussed in depth with every client so they are aware, multiple times actually. As well as I do know the client has seen this slide because they did opt for some of these extras, so I do know for a fact this was discussed. Not to mention we discuss it again in our welcome call the following business day AND in our checklist call once the pool is ordered, just to cover all bases and be extra thorough and make sure there are no surprises.

The set of stairs that the customer ordered is the correct set, they ordered the set that does not come with an attached rail because of their electric cover (the steps with an attached rail do not work with an electric cover, it wont close). It sounds like an additional sandbag is needed to keep the stairs in place. We can absolutely get someone out in the Spring to replace the piece of decking with holes in it and reattach the handrail, that is no problem. We will also have the technician take a look at the stairs since they are not staying in place. All ladders have been on backorder until just recently and so we can also come out at the same time and get that installed for them.

A pool installation is not an overnight process, there are multiple companies involved and many steps to the process that have to be done in a certain order. As for the heater, we do see that for this size pool a larger heater is warranted, so we have ordered a T115 heater and will have that shipped and installed in the Spring when we come out to complete the other items. Thank you for reaching out to us, we will get these issues above rectified in the Spring by sending out one of our best technicians to get everything completed to your satisfaction all at once so you can enjoy your upcoming swim season!
Initial Complaint
11/17/2022
Complaint Type:
Order Issues
Status:
Answered
The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.
On 6/9/2022 ***** and *************************** signed a contract with Kayak Midwest Pools for an in-ground 16x32 pool. We made a deposit of $14,745.00 The issue and nature of dispute (2):1. Failed to perform obligation:- We were told Kayak would install our pool in summer or late fall of 2022 - We were told Kayak Midwest would provide all documentation for permit application 2. Misrepresentation: - The pools are not true in-ground pools but rather recessed temporary structures. These pools are not considered permanent structures per pool industry.I have tried to contact the multiple times. 11/1, 11/3, 11/7, 11/14, 11/16 The last email was with ******************************* on 11/16 about a phone conversation that took place on 11/14.****** was going to recommend to management, Kayak terminate the contract based on how much the cost for the permit application is for our village ($2,200 + non refundable) and the potential loss Kayak would incur if they provided the permit service to us for *****.
Business response
11/30/2022
The Gonzalezs did enter into an agreement with Kayak Pools Midwest on 6/9/2022. They were given a time frame of summer to late fall 2022;as stated on the previously attached agreement. I have included a copy of Kayak pools checklist signed and dated by the Gonzalezs on 9/26/2022. This document states two times in the document that ***** and ***** wanted a spring ************* the Gonzalezs area we had an opportunity to install a few of spring 23s pools. They would need to get their permit and we could get them installed. Kayak did provide all necessary documentation regarding the pool structure to the Gonzalezs. The Village is requesting documentation that will require an engineer drawing and the Gonzalezs are not happy with the fees the village is charging for a permit. Kayak does not regulate what each village,city, or town charges for permits but we do require one on file before delivery. Kayak does state that we will assist you in obtaining your permit; meaning we will answer your questions and offer guidance for no charge. We also offer permit services for a $1500 allowance;this was offered to ***** and ***** by the sales consultant ****** during his presentation. The Gonzalezs did opt for Kayak to complete the plywood,backfill, sump pump, bonding, and sand extras that we offer. The Gonzalezs are requesting to cancel and receive a full refund. As it states in the Damages section of the Kayak agreement If,after we accept your offer to buy our pool, you cancel this Agreement, you refuse delivery of your pool or we are unable, through your fault, to install your pool, you agree, at the option of Kayak Pools Midwest, to pay liquidated damages equal to all monies paid or 15%, whichever is greater, of total price of the pool unless a lesser amount is agreed upon or is required by applicable law. If the Gonzalezs would like to move forward and contract Kayak to obtain their permit for $1500, we would assist with the additional charges needed for approval.
Customer response
11/30/2022
Better Business Bureau:

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined the response would not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.

We never wanted a 2023 install as it states,that is verbiage they placed in the checklist, which is not a contract. We merely conceded to the fact the pool was not going to get installed in 2022 because we saw what other clients were going through (via social media) and after talking with the salesmen again and asking if it was going to get installed in 2022 as he had verbally suggested at the beginning and before we signed the contract. His response was something along the lines asno way in hell.
Secondly, Kayak stated on 10/27/22 (see email ****-1) that if we could get Kayak the permit asap, we could get the pool installed this year, 2022.
It is atrocious that ******** thinks we are not happy with the fees the village is charging for a permit application and is merely a deflection from themselves and the true issue, Kayak employees verbally tell the client one thing and the reality is quite different. We will be paying the permit application fees to the village for the pool with a local pool builder and it will NEVER be a Kayak pool after what they've put us through!
I am also submitting for your review a partial consensual recording (only 3 minutes of a total of 16 minutes plus conversation) of our salesmen stating towards the end of the call that our cancelation is under review and he sees no issues at all getting this canceled and getting our money back.
The reason we opted to file the permit ourselves is due to our salesmen telling us we could save $1,500 because they would provide us with everything needed to file for the permit and that they prefer their customers handle this. Contrary to what ******** wants to say, they never told us that ..we will assist in obtaining your permit; meaning we will answer your questions and offer guidance for no charge. This is a blatant lie.
To give you an idea of the lies and how Kayak change stories, I have composed a timeline along with a separate document with screenshots showing email exchanges between Kayak and us (********):
**** says we can get the pool installed still in 2022 if we get permit asap.
We submit for the permit with the village immediately and let Kayak know we need additional documents the village is requesting, grading and stormwater plans.
Two days later Kayak provide some documentation that does not even qualify for grading and stormwater plans but they tell us to use that.
After getting the run around about our fence issue and the grading and stormwater plans, Ive just about lost my patience and demand for refund of our deposit money.
******** responds that my only two options are: Pay the $1,500 for permit service or lose our deposit money.
conversation with Kayak and Kayak recommends and suggest we cancel our contract due to permit application being more than $1,500 (what Kayak would charge for the permit service) and the potential loss Kayak would incur since the village fees are non-refundable.
11-***** / Phone: ****** A recording of this is attached
Asked for an update on our refund. In the recording ****** states we should have no issue getting our refund.
11-***** / Email: ************************************* class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">Chelsea now states they cannot provide permit service for $1,500 BUT they will pay for the "additional costs incurred for the unexpected engineered plans", the grading and stormwater plans.
Kayak is now stating once again that they can provide permit service for $1,500.

We cannot believe anything Kayak says! I just dont know what to believe anymore from all their lies! As you can see, these deceptive business practice has caused us to suffer financial losses, consumer fraud! Just give us our deposit and lets go our own ways. We are willing to remove all social media negative publicity if we could just have our deposit money refunded.

Regards,

***************************
Business response
12/12/2022
In Eddies conversation with **** in the attached phone recording on 7-12-22, they were discussing delivery of the pool. **** informed ***** that it could be this year or it could be early next year. At minute 3:10 ***** says I was hoping to do it next year so I can invest the money.Ultimately, ***** did elect to delay installation until 2023.

Yes, we did email and inform ***** that if he got his permit we could deliver and install ASAP. The reason for this is because we had their pool in the warehouse and generally we are coming to the end of our installation season at that time of year, but the weather was warmer than usual for that late in the year and we were able to install many more pools than we expected based on weather predictions in the past and so we wanted to give them the option before moving past them in line to get other pools installed still in 2022. It was simply an option we wanted to extend to them, they were always welcome to continue with install in 2023 per ****** original request.

As we have explained numerous times, we are happy to help provide any documentation needed regarding the pool, its equipment, or specs for our customers to obtain permits. However, if a city is requiring additional landscaping or yard documents regarding that ******************* that is something we do not have, as we are not the homeowner. nor do we work for the city Those types of documents are generally supplied to the homeowner at the time of purchase of the home,and in this case it was more extensive than that and they were going to need to hire an engineer to get these plans, but again, they are relating to the yard and not the pool structure. We have engineered stamped specs and drawings of our pools that we provide customers, but this request was way beyond what we could provide, as they pertained to the property and floodplains, etc.Again, why the homeowner is responsible for the permit.

****** then reached out to the ********* because they were upset about the additional costs and wanted to cancel their pool order. The ********* later informed ****** that there were even more fees associated with their city to acquire a permit and that based on the requirements for the permit they did not believe they would even be able to get approved for the permit in the first place and that they did not want to waste the money on the permit application if it was just going to get denied. Of course, when *********************** this he reassured them because permit denial is a refundable reason for cancellation (we are always going to give a full refund to someone if they cant get approved for a permit for the pool) so when *********************** this he did tell them, per the recording ***** sent, that the cancellation was in the process of being reviewed and that based on everything Ive looked at and youve said there should be no issues getting this cancelled. ****** then asked ***** to send him the plat survey of the property and the permit requirements, basically everything that was leading the ********** to believe they could not get an approved permit for this pool so that we could review it and make a decision.

Here is the problem, when we sent everything that the ********* sent ****** over to our permit department to review they came back and said they saw no issue getting this permit approved and that they did not believe it would get denied. That was the whole basis of ******* statement when he said he believed that there would be no issues getting this cancelled,because he was going off of information given to him by ***** when ***** told him they would likely not be able to get an approved permit. You can even hear ***** and ****** discussing it at the end of the recording. So of course ****** told him ***** didnt see an issue with it based on what ***** was telling him because permit denial is a valid reason for cancellation.

Once we realized that was not the case and that this permit was not going to get denied we informed the ********* that if they did decide to cancel they would be subject to the cancellation fee and there would be no refund since they were not cancelling for a refundable reason as outlined in their contract. Then, after that ***** changed his story and stated that he knew the permit would be approved and that he was going to get a permit for a different pool that was not a Kayak. So unfortunately, it seems that what ***** told ****** regarding the permit likely to be denied was not the truth and I assume was to try and get ****** to give him a refund when really that was not the case and he knew he was cancelling for a nonrefundable reason.

Unfortunately, the Gonzalezs are asking to cancel their contract for a nonrefundable reason, so per their contract if they do decide to cancel this late in the process when their pool has already completed manufacturing and is sitting in our warehouse ready to be delivered and installed, there will be no refund. If they choose to proceed we have offered to pay for the additional costs of the 2 engineered drawings that their city is requiring, the drawings that they wanted us to provide from the beginning and the whole reason they asked to cancel in the first place. The options at this point are to proceed and Kayak will pay for the drawings, or cancel and all funds they have paid up until this point will remain on account should they ever decide to revisit a Kayak Pool in the future.

We do want to come to a resolution. Thank you for working with us on this!
Customer response
12/14/2022
Better Business Bureau:

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined the response would not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.

Yes, I did say I was hoping to do it next year so I can invest the money. This was only after talking to ****** and ****** telling us that there was no way in h*** the pool would get installed in 2022. We kept on getting different timelines as to when the pool would get installed, first it was late summer/early fall of 2022, then it was no way in h*** it would be installed in 2022, and after seeing what others were going through, naturally I gave into the idea of the pool being installed in 2023. However, when the opportunity arose on 10/28/22 with the email from **** stating Kayak could get the pool installed this year if we got the permit, we submitted the documentation to the village for the permit immediately, BECAUSE WE WANTED A POOL IN 2022, NOT IN 2023. It was never our original request to have the pool installed in ******************** the latest better business bureau response. If I wanted the pool in 2023, I would have never agreed or said yes to **** on 10/28/22, but Kayak needs to make it seem like we wanted a pool in 2023 and discredit us. We have proof we submitted for the permit the same day on 10/28/22.

Basically, Kayak's defense is blatantly false, absurd, and inexcusable. Its a lie. We did not tell ******, our salesmen, they (Kayak) will likely not be able to get an approved permit. How on earth would we even know if it would or wouldnt get approved? Perhaps ****** assumed that based on our conversation and had given us false hopes. ****** was the one who recommended we cancel the contract. Hes the one that suggested we cancel after hearing that our village requires over $2,200 in fees for the permit on top of grading/stormwater plans and said our village is corrupt and that Kayak could take a potential loss if they provided the permit service for $1,500. After hearing about the permit cost, ****** agreed we should cancel the contract. We never told ****** that based on the requirements for the permit they did not believe they would even be able to get approved for the permit in the first place and that they did not want to waste the money on the permit application if it was just going to get denied. ****** is the one that stated the permit application may not even get approved! We agreed that there is a possibility, as with anything, that the permit could not get approved. Yes, ****** did ask us to send him the plat survey of the property and the permit requirements and fees (which was provided to employees of Kayak previously but apparently never reviewed). When I asked ****** why he needed the plat survey of the property, his response was, I dont know or something to that effect. Something along the lines of management requested it and I didnt ask why. I thought it was odd he needed the plat survey if he is going to recommend to management that we terminate the contract. As we have explained numerous times, Kayak employees verbally tell the customer one thing and the reality is quite different: ****** was lying to us about the cancellation. He probably was never going to suggest to management that we cancel as he stated to us over the phone. It was merely his way of ending the phone conversation and telling us what we wanted to hear.

As we have explained numerous times, we will NEVER put a Kayak pool in our back yard using a company that is deceitful and KNOWINGLY LIES, (including in this latest BBB response). It is disgusting and despicable the lies you tell, including the following: Then, after that ***** changed his story and stated that he knew the permit would be approved and that he was going to get a permit for a different pool that was not a Kayak. Please provide when I stated that since you have recordings and emails? As *** said many times now, we NEVER told ****** that our permit application would not get approved. Clearly ****** is telling us one thing and telling Kayak management another. Please submit to the BBB when we told ****** this and when I changed my story. I cannot believe how dishonest Kayak is. Kayak wants the BBB to believe the issue is with the additional cost for the permit, it is not. The reason for our cancellation is not only because of the additional cost, its so much more. And never once did we tell Kayak we wanted to cancel because of the additional cost. If the additional cost was the issue, we would choose to proceed with the pool installation through Kayak Midwest since the latest response says they have offered to pay for the additional costs of the 2 engineered drawings that their city is requiring. Again, the main issue is with Kayak employees verbally telling the customer one thing and the reality is quite different. However, it goes beyond the lies; its the poor communication (like telling us one day they'll do the permit services to then a different day telling us they won't provide permit services but they'll pay for the grading/stormwater plans ), its the awful service they provide. From promises of when the pool is going to be installed, to issues about our fence, misrepresentation of the pool being an inground pool (it is not considered permanent structures per pool industry), how unprofessional they are, and now sending harassing text messages calling me a liar and so much more! Why would anyone want to do business from this place the way they treat customers? How would the company respond to us if we continued this process and our pool had issues where we needed service? Based on our experience thus far and how much negative feedback there is online, I doubt Kayak Midwest would help. The relationship between us and Kayak is irreparable and we have a big distaste for the company. The ONLY solution is for our refund. I honestly do not know how they are in business. They persuade the customer to sign the contract and handle the services so that they trap the customer into this exact situation we are now in. And based on what I understand, we are not the only customer in this position. They dont care about the customer or what is involved in the permit process, once youve signed the contract, youre pretty much stuck in this contract with this horrendous company. Kayak Midwest knowingly does this on purpose. The salesmen stated before we signed, Kayak would provide all documentation necessary for the permit, even in the recording ****** admits that yes, we do provide all documentation necessary and that is true for 95% of their customers. What about the other 5%? The salesmen use carefully worded corporate jargon to scam and defraud consumers. We were swayed into handling the permit so that we could "save ourselves the $1,500 for the permit services" and handle it ourselves.

Kayak Midwest has our deposit money but we would never give Kayak Midwest additional money based on our experience with them. Yes, we will be getting a pool EVENTUALLY with a local, reputable pool builder, but I would never put in a Kayak pool even if you gave it to us for free. Especially after hearing horror stories from other people about their installation mistakes and what they have to go through to get them corrected. Kayak Midwest has put us through so much with lies, deceit and misinformation. How they conduct business is beyond disgraceful but I guess that's why they are no longer BBB accredited. Kayak has not stepped one foot on our property and hasnt done any work for us with the exception of this back and forth horrible communication. There is no reason we cant cut ties and get our money back.

Regards,

***************************
Initial Complaint
10/08/2022
Complaint Type:
Service or Repair Issues
Status:
Answered
The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.
We bought our pool last fall, to be installed in the spring per recorded phone calls. We received our pool in spring. We did not have contact with an installer until mid-July. It was long enough that the boxes were degrading. ***** the installer arrived July 23 to start. The pool was supposed to be a above ground pool. By the time ***** was done "leveling and getting below roots" it is now almost a in-ground pool on the front. Not a big deal except I had to buy exterior plywood to surround the outside of the pool where we will be backfilling, drain tile and gravel. Additional cost. The pool was supposed to be lined up with the house. It is at an angle.***** was unable to finish pool due to needing parts. Returned July 30 to "finish" pool. Advised him of a leak at the pump, and water level dropping. He left the 30th. Sent him a text about some missing fencing on the 31st. Also advised him that the water level dropped still after pump leak fixed. New liner arrived Aug 8, and is still sitting beside the barn. August 5 we were contacted by **** asking about the final payment of $1000. We already paid $34,000! He said "Wanted to ask you to send us a check by mail or phone? To avoid it being sent to collections." August 11 ***** was supposed to be back to work on the pool. Friday Aug 12 **** replied to a email that ***** would be there by "Friday" to finish pool. August 12, I also emailed **** with pictures of incomplete items on the pool. He thanked me for the pictures then no communication. August 17 I text ***** asking if he knew when he would be back. He said ***** contacted him and they were ordering additional parts. Parts arrived Sept 19. Advised ***** and ****. ***** said she forwarded to the service department. Sept 29 sent email asking for update. No reply. Called no reply. Sept 19 I also asked for some sort of compensation due to being unable to use the pool this year.
Business response
10/21/2022
The Hommans were given a time frame of late spring to mid summer pending weather and unforeseen circumstances. They received their pool the first week of July and was installed by 7/27/2022, which is with-in the timeframe given. The Hommans did have a slope in their yard and was informed from the beginning that if we have to do a slope dig more that 2ft that there may be an additional charge. The ground had to be dug out to make the pool level and that is why the pool is at grade in the front. This is also more than 2ft and I do not see an additional charge of $1192.50 for the extra 1.5ft needed to level the pool. We do have the Hommans scheduled for service October 22nd to complete and repair their pool. We are continuing to work with the Hommans to get their pool complete and account settled.
Customer response
10/24/2022
Better Business Bureau:

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined the response would not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.

For starters, most everybody recognizes summer as Memorial day weekend to Labor day weekend, as it is too cold in our area to open earlier than Memorial day, or stay open past Labor day. This "summer" had 101 days. July 27 was 61 days into the season. The pool was erected but is not installed. Installed would be a completed product. This is far from completed. I have recorded conversations of phone calls that said it would be completed in the spring by the salesman. He said that the contract might say a little later but that was a norm and we would be swimming by summer.

As far as the extra depth, this was supposed to be an on-grade install which would have put the depth of dig less than 2 feet. The area that was to be on grade is approx 16 inches below grade. The initial installer, I think had trouble getting a level grade so he kept digging deeper than needed. Ironically, the "deep end" is not even dug to the correct depth, which is a contributing factor to why we have the wrinkles in our liner. It was supposed to be 5 feet, 6 inches. It is much closer to 5ish feet. Maybe a bit shy of 5 feet.

So we were scheduled for repairs to start on Oct 22. The repair person was a no-call, no-show on Oct 22.. I emailed everyone I had contact info for asking if the repair person was coming. To this day, I have not heard back from one of them. The repair person called me Sunday morning, Oct 23, and said he was on his way. Due to scheduling, I was not going to be there when he arrived. I explained to him that since he was a no-show the day before I could not introduce him to our dogs, therefore I was unsure if he would be able to get in and do the work. He said he would try and was able to commence work on the pool before I got home. He had the pool drained and had conversations with his scheduler (***** I think). The repairman was told to leave by *****. He had already drained the pool! He was told any liner work would have to wait until spring. It was known that there was liner work, before the repairman showed up! They delivered a new liner prior to arrival of the repairman! They (*****) said they would schedule a water truck to come in and fill our pool back up. As of now, this has not taken place yet as I have had no communication from Kayak.

The picture I uploaded this time, shows the depth below grade. That corner was supposed to be at grade. I have many other pictures of the incorrect install. Also note the amount of moisture under the deck. It has not really dried out since install due to the liner leaking.

Kayak is NOT continuing to work with us to get the pool completed and account settled as they claim in their rebuttal. If anything they are generally working against us by not communicating, by not being willing to accept that the initial installer was not qualified, (I know, he was certified per employees at Kayak), and by trying to say we owe more money. We have lost the use of the pool for the entire summer. Our yard is still a mess as I am afraid to do much work due to not knowing everything that they are going to fix, I have been unable to complete the electric again due to not knowing exactly what is going to be done with the filter and how it is sitting on the ground, not on any blocks. To square the pool up with the house the way it was supposed to be done would require the whole pool be disassembled and reassembled in the correct orientation (and probably more excavation work). Orienting the pool the way it was supposed to be is the least of my worries, even though aesthetically it is not pleasing to the eye. The longer this drags out though, the more I am wanting it oriented correctly.

Regards,

*************************
Business response
11/04/2022
Mr. ******* service is scheduled for November 12th. At that time the swing up ladder, apron and fence will be installed. We will be correcting the deep end depth and installing new liner in the spring. These items have to wait till spring due to the temperatures this time of year are not conducive for proper liner installation. The Hommans have informed us that they agreed to these terms.
Customer response
11/08/2022
Better Business Bureau:

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined the response would not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.

The only person I have spoke with has been ************** the Nov 12 date. He did advise me that they would do the liner in the spring however obviously I have no idea of when. The reason I am rejecting this rebuttal is three fold.

1) Nobody has actually called or returned emails on the repair plan. I have an email dated Nov 2 requesting a follow-up after speaking with ****** and ***** Oct 31. ***** assured me she would call me Nov 1. No response. I have other questions that have not been answered.
2) Nobody has addressed the compensation for loss of use, the hassles I have had in getting anything accomplished, or my time involved with this issue.
3) Nobody has addressed the issue with the orientation of the pool. Will that be fixed when the liner work is getting done?
The pool picture attached shows approximate location of pool currently. It was supposed to be squared up with the house (Picture2) so I would have linear lines to build my patio between my man door on the garage and the pool.

Regards,

*************************
Business response
11/21/2022
When receive the evaluation back from the Technician that was there last week. We will take a close look at the information submitted and respond with a plan of action.
Customer response
12/02/2022
Better Business Bureau:

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined the response would not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.

Pretty obvious they have no plans to finish the job. We are into winter now and I know they can't do the liner work. The repair man did come and did some of the repairs. None of my other concerns have been addressed.

Regards,

*************************

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