Moving Companies
Points West Moving CompanyThis business is NOT BBB Accredited.
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Complaints
Customer Complaints Summary
- 3 total complaints in the last 3 years.
- 0 complaints closed in the last 12 months.
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Submit a ComplaintThe complaint text that is displayed might not represent all complaints filed with BBB. Some consumers may elect to not publish the details of their complaints, some complaints may not meet BBB's standards for publication, or BBB may display a portion of complaints when a high volume is received for a particular business.
Initial Complaint
Date:30/11/2023
Type:Billing IssuesStatus:AnsweredMore info
Complaint statuses
- Resolved:
- The complainant verified the issue was resolved to their satisfaction.
- Unresolved:
- The business responded to the dispute but failed to make a good faith effort to resolve it.
- Answered:
- The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.
- Unanswered:
- The business failed to respond to the dispute.
- Unpursuable:
- BBB is unable to locate the business.
We are ******* who hired Points West (“PW”) Moving to get us from a ******* ******** ********* to one in Calgary Nov 2-4, 2023, with similar suite size & layout. A quote for $5,500 was provided, noting $500,000 in insurance coverage, w no mention of a deductible. The quote incl packing/loading/transport'n/unloading and unpacking. A deposit was pd at the outset w the balance pd in Calgary Nov 4. The final invoice shows charges of $800 for packing & $600 for unpacking. The PW packing crew in Kelowna (approx 6) only had continuity of 2 in Calgary, w others picked up along the way/added in Calgary. Upon arrival, only boxes were initially unpacked, blocking elevator & hallway egress for others (w walkers/wheelchairs). Furniture needed to be unloaded first to enable box contents somewhere to go (logistics were a huge issue). The bathrooms in the suite had boxes & pictures unloaded to the point that the bathrooms were not usable. PW staff did not unload or move these, so until lodge staff could come help, the bathrooms were not accessible. Further, one PW crew member was escorted off the premises by lodge mgmt due to foul language, smoking & loud music, which they would not stop when asked by lodge mgmt. This PW crew member unsafely left a small parking lot (where elderly people w wheelchairs/walkers, as well as caregivers & visitors were in). The building was then locked down temporarily as a result of this safety concern. Numerous items arrived broken, some costly items didn't arrive at all, & very little of the contracted & paid for unpacking was completed. Packing (which was pd for) of the wardrobe boxes was poorly done (clothing strewn into the top with fragile items scattered throughout). We were told by remaining crew that PW HQ was aware of the issues. PW mgmt has been contacted by email and phone by our sister/in law (who we authorized to do this) & have not been willing to accept responsibility or liability.Business Response
Date: 30/11/2023
UNPACKING SERVICES WERE PROVIDED BY POINTS WEST MOVING BUT THE CUSTOMER INFORMED THE CREW
TO STOP PACKING AS THEY COULD NOT KEEP UP WITH PUTTING THE ***** AWAY. THERE WERE 4 MEN ON THE JOB
IN ******* AND TWO OF THE MEN WERE TREATED BADLY BY THE APARTMENT MANAGER AND LEFT THE PREMISES.
NO INSURANCE COVERAGE WAS PURCHASED BY THE CUSTOMER. IF IT HAD BEEN PURCHASED THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN INFORMED OF A $1000.00 DEDUCTIBLE.
ANY CLAIMS WOULD HAVE TO BE MADE UNDER THE CUSTOMERS HOME OWNERS POLICY.
WE WILL DEFINITELY NOT BE MOVING ANY OF OUR CUSTOMERS INTO THIS APARTMENT COMPLEX IN THE FUTURE.
WE HAVE A SIGNED BILL OF LADING BY THE CUSTOMER STATING THAT SERVICES WERE RENDERED IN A SATISFACTORY MANNER
AND ALL GOODS WERE RECEIVED IN GOOD ORDER.
Customer Answer
Date: 01/12/2023
Complaint: ********
I am rejecting this response because:UnPACKing (as paid for) was NOT completed by **. The furniture was NOT unloaded first by ** to enable anything to be put away and ** crew continued to unload boxes which blocked hallways/suite (vs. bringing in furniture first). ** indicated we could not keep up with putting things away, but THEY were contracted and paid to unpack - which THEY could not do because the crew had not unloaded the furniture that the items needed to go into! Their comment is nonsensical at best, and frankly an admission of their breach of service.
Their comment that they will not be moving any customers into the senior's complex in the future is true, but not because of their choice, but because the retirement lodge has indicated that they are no longer welcome to come into the building. ** crew were escorted off of the premises by lodge mgmt due to extremely foul language and disrespectful behaviour (swearing, loud music, smoking). Language bad enough that BBB would not accept it in the initial complaint submission. Carestaff were in the elevator as crew were swearing and carrying on, making them very uncomfortable. Management escorted one crew member out, and this person then unsafely peeled out of the small parking lot where there are ******* in wheelchairs/walkers as well as caregivers and visitors coming and going. As noted to ** mgmt by us, the retirement lodge personnel would be happy to speak to ** (or BBB) to give their perspective (***** or ******).
Insurance coverage of $500,000 is noted on the 5th line of the quote (previously provided to BBB) with NO mention or documentation of a deductible. ** indicated in their response that no insurance was purchased - yet it is on our quote (which did not change) and therefore was in our contract. Why would it be listed on our quote if it is not in effect? A quote outlines the terms and conditions associated with the service contracted.
The Bill of lading signature was requested before boxes were fully unpacked. The ** crew was pressing us to sign as they wanted to leave and indicated numerous times to us that they needed to get back to *******. They left before a number of boxes were unpacked (21 not unpacked in total). There was no way we knew what was missing/broken by that time. Photos provided show numerous unpacked boxes left for us to unpack ourselves. We provided photos to ** and BBB of broken items, boxes left in an unpacked state and those we had to unpack ourselves (and were emptied and stacked at the end of the hallway as we had no where to put them). In fact, senior lodge personnel had to help us move and unpack boxes so we could access the bathrooms.
All goods were NOT received/nor were all belongings in good order, nor were all services provided. The wardrobe boxes were NOT packed properly. Our clothes were not hung as they should be, but strewn into the boxes, with fragile ******* and ceramics 'found' in between (when WE were left with boxes to unpack). We paid for offloading (3rd line of the quote), packing and unpacking services (6th line of the quote) separately. What does ** define as "unpacking"?
Numerous items did NOT arrive, including two ******** ******* systems ($400 to replace), a wine rack as well as its contents ($355 to replace).
** is not being forthright.
We are requesting a refund of $1,671.96, as itemized and summarized (with back up and photos provided to support the claim) for broken items, items lost/never delivered, as well as for refund for services that were not provided. This gives ** 'credit' that they unpacked 30% of our belongings, which is being kind.
After all of the above was made known to **, they made no effort to reach out to resolve the issues, and continue to be deflective and not forthright. This is not acceptable.
Sincerely,
***************************Business Response
Date: 04/12/2023
NO CLAIM ALLOWED.
DID NOT SPEAK WITH THE ACTUAL CUSTOMER.
THESE COMPLAINTS WERE MADE MY THE SISTER OF THE CUSTOMER.
NO TRANSIT INSURANCE WAS PURCHASED BY THE CUSTOMER.
THERE IS NO CLAIM OR ADJUSTMENT TO THE **** OF LADING.
Customer Answer
Date: 05/12/2023
Complaint: ********
I am rejecting this response because:I spoke directly with *****************************, Sales Manager the morning of Monday November 6, 2023 and advised him that numerous boxes were not unpacked by his crew before they left on Sunday November 5, 2023. I told him that 21 boxes in total were left for us to unpack ourselves; that of the boxes we had unpacked to that point, there were damaged and broken items including ceramics; and that the wine rack and contents did not arrive. It took my wife and I well over 4 days to completely unpack all of the boxes, and it was only then we knew the 2 ******** ******* systems were missing.
It is false to state that the complaints were made by our sister/in-law only, given the discussion I had directly with ******, as outlined above. Further, I have and do fully authorize the claim/email that ********************* made/sent on our behalf, as we had no access to our computer at that time and we were not able to send an email in a timely fashion. I have attached a written authorization, indicating that ********************* is fully authorized to act as my representative in this matter.
We did purchase transit insurance, as per the quote from Points West. The quote obtained from them (on Points West letterhead) is attached to this response. I direct you to the second line of the quote that states **** services we will provide are as follows:", and the fifth line of the quote that states ****************** coverage up to a maximum of $500,000.00". Note that there is absolutely no mention of a deductible, nor was a deductible ever mentioned to me in any of my communication with Points West.
I fully expect a refund of $1,671.96, with the itemized detail as per the attached excel document that provides the summary as well as support for this amount.
Sincerely,
***************************Business Response
Date: 08/12/2023
****** never spoke to the customer on Nov 06, 2023.
All items that were loaded in *******(only customers goods were on the truck) were delivered in *******.Customer informed the ********************** crew to stop unpacking as the customer could not keep up placing items in cupboards. Also the manager of the building told two of our crew from ******* to leave the premises which left only two people from our ******* office to complete the services.
We have a signed bill of lading which shows no purchase of transit insurance and that the customer agreed to the terms and conditions and the services rendered were in a satisfactory manner and that all goods were received in good order.
We do approximately 600 moves per year and about 1% of customers have concerns regarding their move.
It would appear that covid may be part of the problem.
Customer Answer
Date: 08/12/2023
Complaint: ********
I am rejecting this response because:I spoke to ***************************** at approximately 8:30am ******* time on Monday November 6, 2023 to discuss the issues noted. I purposely waited until 9:30 ******* time to allow him to get into the office. Perhaps whoever is responding to this needs to speak to ****** directly, assuming there is willingness to be truthful. Points West was fully aware of the issue, not just from my phone call, but also from the crew, who indicated to me that headquarters knew of the issues - because they told me so. Further, ****** also spoke directly to ****** later in the week, who advised that ****** is the Sales Manager, **** is the President and *** is the claims specialist. We would not have had this information without having talked to *************
All items in our unit were NOT delivered in *******. To state that is false. Wine rack, wine rack contents and 2 ******** Therapy Packs are missing. They were in the unit in *******. They were never delivered in *******.
We told the crew to bring in FURNITURE so that the contents of the boxes they continued to unload, could be unpacked. Further, the unpacking of boxes was to be done by Points West, and was not. There is photo evidence of boxes left behind that were not unpacked. Points West is completely disregarding what took place.
The crew escorted off the of the premises were swearing profanities and were highly disruptive in the building. The fact that crew are escorted out due to profanity should be of concern to them. Frankly, that is not our issue, that is a personnel management issue on Points West part. It is up to Points West to staff and supervise their crew - not ours.
We have a quote showing that we purchased transit insurance. The quote and final bill were the same, therefore, that is what was contracted and we paid them for $500,000.00 worth of transit insurance, per the quote.
The signature on the bill of lading was signed prior to all boxes being unpacked, as the crew was pushing to leave. They said they needed to leave to get back to ******* - more than once. The boxes were supposed to be unpacked by Points West and were not - and Points West was PAID for UNPACKING. This is actually fraudulent activity.
Per the last comment from Points West that "covid might be part of the problem" - if the crew had Covid that is also Points West issue, not ours, and frankly they should be monitoring their crew for the safety of their customers.
Sincerely,
***************************Business Response
Date: 15/12/2023
WE DON'T HAVE A **** WORKING FOR US. WE HAVE A SIGNED **** OF LADING BY THE CUSTOMER WHICH DOES NOT SHOW ANY CHARGES FOR ANY PURCHASE OF TRANSIT INSURANCE.
TRANSIT INSURANCE IS AVAILABLE TO ALL CUSTOMERS BUT MUST BE PURCHASED.
ALL ITEMS PACKED AND LOADED IN ******* WERE DELIVERED IN *******.
OUR CREWS DO NOT HAVE COVID AND ARE REQUIRED TO SHOW PROOF OF THEIR COVID SHOTS.
THIS IS THE THIRD REPLY TO COMPLAINT *********** AND WE WILL NOT BE RESPONDING ANY FURTHER.
Customer Answer
Date: 16/12/2023
Complaint: ********
I am rejecting this response because:NO IDEA IF YOU HAVE A **** WORKING FOR YOU (A DEFLECTIVE COMMENT ON YOUR PART, AS I NEVER TALKED ABOUT A ****), BUT YOU DO HAVE A *****************************, WHO IS YOUR SALES MANAGER AND OUR MAIN CONTACT TO YOUR COMPANY FOR THE ****** IT IS ****** THAT I CALLED ON THE FIRST BUSINESS DAY AFTER THE MOVE TO COMMUNICATE THE VARIOUS CONCERNS WE HAD ABOUT THE MOVE, LACK OF UNPACKING, BROKEN ITEMS, CREW, ETC. ALTHOUGH YOU CLAIM POINTS WEST DID NOT RECEIVE A PHONE CALL FROM ME REGARDING THE VARIOUS ISSUES, I HAVE A COPY OF MY MOBILE PHONE BILL SHOWING A CALL MADE TO POINTS WEST (******) FOR 11 MINUTES ON MONDAY NOVEMBER 6, 2023 (ATTACHED AND PROVIDED TO BBB).
TRANSIT INSURANCE WAS PURCHASED AS CLEARLY ITEMIZED AS A PURCHASED SERVICE ON THE ***** YOU PROVIDED TO ME, WITH THE AMOUNT ULTIMATELY PAID EQUAL TO THE ****** YOUR BUSINESS IS ************ SELLING INSURANCE AND THEN NOT PROVIDING SUPPORT TO YOUR CUSTOMERS WHEN YOUR CREWS DAMAGE GOODS OR SIMPLY FAIL TO PACK/DELIVER YOUR CUSTOMER'S GOODS.
YOU MAY HAVE DELIVERED ALL ITEMS PACKED IN *******, BUT YOU FAILED TO PACK ALL OF OUR BELONGINGS BEFORE YOU LEFT *******. POINTS WEST SEEMS TO THINK THAT PACKING OF BELONGINGS IS DONE ON A SPOT/INCOMPLETE BASIS. PACKING ALL ITEMS IS USUALLY NOT AN OPTIONAL DECISION MADE BY THE MOVER.
YOUR RESPONSES BACK SO FAR HAVE BEEN DEFLECTIVE AND FALSE, SO IT IS NO DOUBT THAT YOU NO LONGER WANT TO COMMUNICATE. YOU DEFLECT FACTS AND YOU IGNORE PHOTO PROOF OF LEGITIMATE CUSTOMER CONCERNS/CLAIMS PROVIDED TO YOU. ******************** WEST IS UNWILLING TO STAND BY ITS SERVICE OR CREW, DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THE CUSTOMER NOR DO YOU OPERATE IN GOOD FAITH.
I SUSPECT YOU HOPE THAT MOST CUSTOMERS DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO REVIEWS, AND MANY ARE ******* WITH LITTLE ACCESS OR ABILITY TO STAND UP TO YOUR SHAMEFUL SERVICE. HOPE YOU CAN SLEEP KNOWING WHAT YOU DO TO PEOPLE. THE WORST PART IS THAT BASED ON RECENT AND NUMEROUS REVIEWS ONLINE, WE ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES.
Sincerely,
***************************Business Response
Date: 18/12/2023
Where do you find on your bill of lading an amount for the purchase of transit insurance.
SHOW US WHAT DOLLAR AMOUNT OF TRANSIT INSURANCE YOU PURCHASED.
YOUR BILL OF LADING HAS A BREAKDOWN OF ALL CHARGES FOR YOUR MOVE.
WE HAVE REPLIED TO ALL YOUR CONCERNS IN OTHER CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE BBB.
Customer Answer
Date: 18/12/2023
Complaint: ********
I am rejecting this response because:The quote given to me by ***************************** - Sales Manager, dated Sept 25, 2023, on Points West Letterhead, provided details which clearly stated that TRANSIT INSURANCE and UNPACKING (separate from unloading) were IN THE CONTRACT.
UNPACKING services DID NOT occur, and PACKING was done so poorly that a number of items were broken. Further, certain items NEVER MADE IT TO *******. The move was not one where packing of contents in certain areas or rooms was somehow optional at the discretion of the crew. Note that we were told by the crew in ******* that the truck that had our belongings on it also dropped off contents in ******************** for another customer prior to coming to *******. It is therefore possible that the crew left some of our belongings in ********************. Points West should be HELPING the customer retrieve their belongings, or pay replacement costs - neither of which they seem to be willing to do. Negligence on the part of the crew is Points West's responsibility, not ours.
I have re-typed salient content of the Sept 25, 2023 quote referred to above (that came from ******), word for word and line by line, below, as it would appear that Points West is unwilling to read their own contract.
POINTS WEST MOVING provided me with the following on their letterhead:
Re: MOVE FROM ******* TO *******
"**** ******
*** ******* *** **** **** **** ** * **** ***** ** ********* ********* ****
*** ******** ** **** ******* *** ** ********
*************** ******** **********
**** **** *** *** ** ** ********
***************** ******** ** ** * ******* ** ***********
******* *** ********* ********
******* * ** ****** ******** ** ********* *** **********
******** **** *** ****
******* ***** *** *** **** ********** ** ******
******* ***** *** *** **** ********** ** ******
******** ***** *** *** **** ********** ** ******
****** ******* **** ******* ** *** ****** ** ******* ** *** ** ******* ******* ******* ** ****** ***** **** ******* ** *** ***** *********** ******** ****
The deposit of $700 was paid to Points West prior to the move, and the balance of the $5,500 was paid on Nov 3, 2023. The service items that I paid for included those items listed in the contract at the outset of the move, as per above. Points West is in breach of contract, and I expect them to pay what they owe us, namely $1,671.96, as has been itemized, summarized, backed up with photos etc.Sincerely,
***************************Business Response
Date: 17/01/2024
We have already responded to the BBB concerning ID ********Initial Complaint
Date:07/11/2023
Type:Service or Repair IssuesStatus:AnsweredMore info
Complaint statuses
- Resolved:
- The complainant verified the issue was resolved to their satisfaction.
- Unresolved:
- The business responded to the dispute but failed to make a good faith effort to resolve it.
- Answered:
- The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.
- Unanswered:
- The business failed to respond to the dispute.
- Unpursuable:
- BBB is unable to locate the business.
June 27 this company packed up my house and moved my belongings from ********** ** to ******** **. July 1 they unloaded my belongings, I paid them $7000 total. There was a lot damage to my belongings, many things broken and filthy. The movers told me the company would clean, repair or replace items and they would submit the claim to the main office and that I was to call for follow up. The office refused to work with me, denied any damage to my stuff and refused to provide me with copies any paperwork. They then sent a form I had never seen before with my forged signature on it claiming I signed off on everything with no complaints which was false. They refuse to communicate or work with me.Business Response
Date: 08/11/2023
Packing and loading date June 27, 2023, delivery date June 29, 2023.
All claims for damages must be made within 7 days after delivery of the shipment.
No insurance was taken out by this customer and she was advised to make a claim
under her home owners insurance policy. A copy of the bill of lading was given to the customer upon delivery of her goods.
We did not send this customer any other bill of lading and we would not sign or forge any documents.
If you require any further information, please e-mail me back.
Thank you.
*************************
Manager
Customer Answer
Date: 14/11/2023
Complaint: ********
I am rejecting this response because:******************* is confused because the company packed my belongings on June 27 but delivery ended up being July 1st because on packing day I was advised my contents were travelling to ********, then ************, then to ********.
******************** didnt have the bill of lading with him for me to sign so asked me to sign the ******al quote dated April 14th, which I did.
I was under the impression Points West was a reputable company and insurance was included. First, the delivery men would not open the doors to the truck until I had paid them. As they unloaded my contents we noticed scratches and damage to my contents. The delivery person advised me he had spoken with the claims manager, Mr ************************* and I was to contact him via email with a list of the damage and I would have the damaged items cleaned, repaired or replaced. The document I signed upon receipt of my contents I wrote that there was numerous damage and furniture was not properly covered and was dusty and dirty.I was never given copies of either document I signed. The document I signed in BC on packing was different than the document I signed on delivery day. I never signed the same document twice. The document Points West submitted has my signature on it twice and is missing my comments I wrote about the damage. This is not the document I signed. I have witness who viewed me signing both documents and will attest that what they submitted is not the documents I signed.
Sincerely,
*****************************Business Response
Date: 16/11/2023
THE QUOTE OR ESTIMATE ON APRIL 14, 2023 DOES NOT REQUIRE A SIGNATURE AND
THERE IS NO PLACE ON THE ESTIMATE FOR A SIGNATURE. IT IS A QUOTE FOR SERVICES
AND COSTS FOR THEIR MOVE.
IF THE CUSTOMER BOOKS THE MOVE, A CONFIRMATION E-MAIL IS SENT TO THE
CUSTOMER CONFIRMING CHARGES AND THE SERVICES POINTS WEST MOVING WILL BE PROVIDING FOR THE CUSTOMER.
WHEN THE SHIPMENT IS DELIVERED TO THE CUSTOMER, CHARGES ARE DUE BEFORE THE SHIPMENT IS OFFLOADED,
THIS IS STANDARD PROCEDURE WITH ALL MOVING COMPANIES.
THE CUSTOMER SIGNS THE BILL OF LADING AGAIN ON DELIVERY.
Customer Answer
Date: 20/11/2023
Complaint: ********
I am rejecting this response because:I never saw or signed the Bill of Lading that ******************** alludes to. Because he did not have me sign that document, I was not advised of Points West terms and conditions, and had no opportunity to read them since I did not know they existed.
If you view the signatures on the ****** side then the Destination side of the Bill of Lading you will note the signatures are identical even though I supposedly signed the document 5 days apart. The lines above and below my signature wouldnt exist in that area as it is a box for signatures. I am concerned about my signature on that document being forged.
All I am asking is that Points West honour the verbal commitment made to me by their delivery driver who assured me he had spoken with the claims manager that I would be compensated for the items broken, the damaged items would be repaired, and the furniture would be cleaned.
Sincerely,
*****************************Business Response
Date: 04/12/2023
CUSTOMER DID NO PURCHASE TRANSIT INSURANCE.
NO CLAIM ALLOWED
Initial Complaint
Date:16/06/2023
Type:Billing IssuesStatus:ResolvedMore info
Complaint statuses
- Resolved:
- The complainant verified the issue was resolved to their satisfaction.
- Unresolved:
- The business responded to the dispute but failed to make a good faith effort to resolve it.
- Answered:
- The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.
- Unanswered:
- The business failed to respond to the dispute.
- Unpursuable:
- BBB is unable to locate the business.
We agreed to a contract for moving our furniture out of the condo we sold in December, 2022. The contract was for a FIRM PRICE of $3,650 which included 1st month storage fee, transportation, and taxes with a deposit of $400.00. We paid half up front ($1,625) plus $400 deposit. Going forward we paid a monthly storage fee of $400 for the months of Jan., Feb., Mar., Apr. and May. We scheduled a move in of our furniture on June 11, 2023 (which was 2 days past the monthly storage fee being due for the month of June). Truck and crew arrived and our furniture moved in. There was considerable water damage to some furniture and quite a few boxes (there were boxes literally falling apart). We lost kitchen table, chairs, dressers and most of our bedding and linen due to water damage which caused mold and mildew. Jeff G******* (boss of the crew) acknowledged the damage and said he would give us a $400 discount for damage. While the move was going on, he then presented us with the final bill of $2,297 which we paid by credit card amidst the chaos, not paying attention to the amount. Having since looked at the bill we were appalled to see that "transportation, fuel surcharge and taxes" as well as an additional $400 had been added for the entire month of June instead of just 2 days extra storage fee. We then tried for several days to contact both Jeff and Dennis G******* via email, text msg and voice mail. Days later, we have received 1 email from Jeff to say the invoice was correct and he was willing to refund us $400. Since then we have not heard from him or Dennis. When BBB forwarded our review to the company they indicated that we had agreed to $400 and have been paid. We are not aware of any e-transfer or credit back to our credit card. We are looking for reimbursement of the overpayment. Our understanding is that we should only have paid $1,625 + 2 extra days for storage. We agreed to $400 discount for storage, so we should only have to pay $1,225+ 2 days storage fee.Business Response
Date: 16/06/2023
Refund of $400.00 to be made nay interact e-transfer on Monday, June 19Customer Answer
Date: 20/06/2023
Better Business Bureau:
I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********. We want to move on and complete this matter. Please advise whether there is anything we need to do from our end to facilitate the e-transfer of $400.00 back to us.
Sincerely,
*******************
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