Complaintsfor4W's Demo Ltd.

• Initial Complaint

  26/10/2023

  Complaint Type:

  Billing Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  We contracted 4Ws ********* to remove some old flooring in our house at *********************************************. We had attempted to remove it ourselves but found it very difficult to remove. We showed and explained all this to 4Ws representative when she came to view the job. They said the job would take 1 maybe 2 days and cost $4125 plus GST. They said they had the tools, skilled labor and know how to remove the floor. We agreed to the contract by email. They could not complete the job after 1 day and had only removed about 10% of the job. They sent us a bill for about 50% of the contract price. Nothing they completed was a benefit to us and it will now cost us more to complete the job. In order to resolve the issue, we offered 10% of the contract price and they came back with a bill for about 40% of the contract. We believe we owe them nothing as they were informed and shown how difficult the job was right up front. And what they did do did not benefit us in anyway.We have lots of photos and emails between us but were unable to upload them here.

  

  Business response

  30/10/2023

  Hello,

  We were contacted by phone by one of our long time clients who is a contractor in the Delta area that one of their clients would be calling ** to arrange for a site visit as Our long time client would not have time to conduct the site visit as they were scheduled to go out of town on vacation. Shortly after this phone conversation the home owners on *********** called to arrange for a site visit.

  When we conducted the site visit at ********************************************** on September 26, 2023, it was explained to the home owners that the estimate for the flooring removal was based on up to 2 days of work to remove the sheet vinyl in the kitchen and the 2 layers vinyl plank in the hallway and living room.

  On October 3, 2023 We went by to collect the house keys as the owners would be out of town when the project was to take place.  The owners then asked that we include the sheet vinyl in the master bedroom closet.  It was explained to them at that time that this would be an extra charge and we would not be able to remove the paper backing without removing the subfloor.  They seemed ok with this as it was their intention to cover it up with a new layer of flooring.

  On October 6, 2023 we arrived on site and proceeded to remove the sheet vinyl flooring in the kitchen and master bedroom closet.  Once this aspect of work was completed we began to work on what was supposed to be 2 layers of vinyl plank flooring.  This turned out to be 3 layers, One layer of vinyl plank, one layer of thin wood and another layer of vinyl plank.  After working on the vinyl plank flooring for just over 2 hours the crew called to say it was taking over one hour to do about one square foot. We contacted the contractor and floor contractor who were to do the installation of the new flooring for advise as to how to proceed as it would take a considerable amount of time above the 2 days it the estimate was based on.  The options at this point was to a) continue removing the vinyl plank and charge the client for the extra days it would take to remove in it's entirety. b) square off the vinyl plank and build up the surrounding areas, c) remove the vinyl plank with the subfloor attached. They instructed us to square off the area we were working on and they would build up the surrounding flooring.  Which is what we did.  We were remiss in contacting the contractor rather than the home owner.

  We subsequently asked the Home owners which of the 2 options for the vinyl plank removal they would like us to undertake.  Continue removal of the vinyl plank leaving the subfloor at an additional charge or remove the vinyl plank with the subfloor at the same estimated price.  They refused both options insisting that the floor be removed under the estimated price that was based on up to 2 days and 2 layers of materials (not 3) and were only willing to pay less than 10% of the estimated price.

  Since the sheet vinyl flooring that was removed made up approximately one third of the material to be removed and we did take up a portion of the vinyl plank, this constituted approximately 40% of the floor removal we sent a final invoice with a discount of over 60% to cover the cost of the removal of the sheet vinyls and the portion of the vinyl plank.

  Regards,

  4W's Demo General Manager

  Customer response

  02/11/2023

  
  Complaint: ********
  
  I am rejecting this response because there are several factual errors and innuendos that are not correct.  I will address each in point form as listed on the business response.

  1. *******, the Demo general manager, continues to imply that the Delta contractor was involved in this project.  He refused to undertake the work and gave us a few referrals including 4W Demo.  The contract for the work is between 4W and us.

  2. During the site visit, we stressed the difficulty in removing the 440 square feet of vinyl planking because we had attempted to remove it ourselves and the pieces we removed were still laying on the floor during the site visit.  She picked up a piece, examined it and took several photos of the 1/4 inch plywood sandwiched securely between vinyl planking on either side. She took pictures.  She said the job would take between 1 and maybe 2 days in spite of our warning.  
  

  3. The extra she talks about in the master bedroom closet is 21 square feet of sheet vinyl and all she said was that is no problem.  Other estimates we received were between $1 and $3 per square foot for removing sheet vinyl - $21 to $63 total for that small area.

  4. We were clear that the expectation would be to remove the vinyl planking and sheet vinyl down to the original subfloor.  She knew it was no benefit to us to just remove the sheet vinyl without removing the vinyl plank. After our repeated warnings, we assumed these experts would have ensured that they could remove the vinyl plank flooring first before doing the easier 140 square feet of sheet vinyl.  
  

  5. We were offered 2 options several days later and both were unacceptable because they would have cost us way more money than our contract price.  In addition, the option of removing the subfloor with the vinyl planking could have had additional consequential damages with the plumbing, electrical and integrity of the older modular home.

  6. We hired 4Ws to remove the difficult vinyl plank flooring which she knew was 3 layers and the much easier vinyl sheeting was only a benefit to get to the original subfloor if the vinyl plank could be removed.

  7. The end result was they removed about 20 square feet of vinyl plank of the 440 square feet and quit.

  8. We received no benefit from their efforts plus it will now cost us more money to rectify the job.  We believe we owe them nothing.

  
  
  Sincerely,
  
  *********************

  

  Business response

  06/11/2023

  In response to the customers rejection.

  1. Agreed the agreement was between the client and 4W's.  The Delta contractor was too busy to attend a site visit due to impending vacation.

  2. Elderly clients advised of the difficulty they had in vinyl plank removal. We did advise the project SHOULD take 1-2 days to remove but may take longer. Layer of plywood "sandwiched" between layers of vinyl plank was not clearly evident at the time of the site visit and was not observed until the removals began after the sheet vinyl had been removed.

  3. The small amount of flooring in the bedroom closet was not added to the final invoice.

  4. Due to the excessive amount of adhesive that would be remaining after the vinyl plank removal, the sheet vinyl was removed at the start of the project to reduce the work load of cleaning up the removed sheet vinyl from the adhesive that was to remain from the vinyl plank removal.  

  The client did not indicate they wanted the sheet vinyl removed after the vinyl plank or any instruction as to the order they wanted things to occur.  It was only after the issue with the vinyl plank removal that they indicated they wanted the vinyl plank removed prior to starting work on the sheet vinyl.  

  5. We offered 3 possible options to the client. 1) continue removal of the vinyl plank at an additional cost due to it not being able to be completed in the timeframe verbally outlined at the time of the site visit. 2)Remove the vinyl plank with the subfloor attached (which we have done on several modular homes in the past) 3) leave the vinyl plank and have the surrounding areas built up to provide a level surface for new floor installation on top of the old.  None of which were accepted by the client.

  In conclusion we are asking to be compensated for the expenses incurred for the removal of the sheet vinyl flooring which was part of the original scope of work.

  Copies of the original estimate and final invoice have been attached for review.

  Customer response

  06/11/2023

  
  Complaint: ********
  
  In response to 4Ws rejection.

  1. The Delta contractor has nothing to do with this issue between 4Ws and ** and never did.  
  

  2. 4Ws told ** at the site visit the job would take 1 maybe 2 days.  During that site visit ******* picked up a piece of the vinyl plank flooring which we had removed.  She examined it and took a picture.  She is incorrect in saying the layer of plywood was not observed until the removals began, it was clearly evident by everyone what was to be removed as it was all glued together and came off as one piece.

  4. This is confusing - how did they know how much adhesive was under the vinyl plank if they hadnt removed any before deciding to remove the sheet vinyl first. We suggest they just took up the sheet vinyl first because it was the easiest thing to do.  If they would have attempted to remove the vinyl plank first they would have realized at that time that they couldnt carry out the contract.  We made it clear not to take off the vinyl sheet unless they were able to remove the vinyl plank to the subfloor - so it would all be at the same level.  In other words just removing the sheet vinyl will now cost us more money for thicker plywood to build the floor up to the existing vinyl plank.  To us it was just common sense to ensure you could do the hard part first before proceeding to do the easier part. In fact the *** of 4Ws admitted in an email he sent us that with this issue that hindsight is 20/20.

  5. (1) This option would have cost us between 2 and 3 times the original contract price. (2) This option would have also cost us considerably more money and potential damage to the utilities beneath the subfloor. (3) The only choice for us is option 3 which has nothing to do with 4Ws.  
  All of these options are going to cost us considerably more money than if 4Ws had completed the work as they confidently told us they would. Or better still if they had done nothing at all before they tested the vinyl plank removal as we suggested.
  

  In conclusion, none of the work 4Ws did for us will benefit us in anyway - in fact it is going to cost us more money. We believe we owe them nothing.

  (We were unable to open the 2 attachments from 4Ws).

  Respectfully

   

  *********************

   

   

   

  
  
  Sincerely,
  
  *********************

  

  Business response

  07/11/2023

  1 We have already agreed the agreement was between the client and 4Ws
  
  2. It was disclosed during the site visit the project should take 1-2 days. A few Vinyl planks were previously removed by home owners were viewed along with the excessive amount of adhesive that remained behind after they had removed the vinyl plank.
  
  4. Adhesive was viewed during the site visit from where a small section of vinyl plank had been removed prior to the site visit hence the knowledge of the adhesive being present before work began.  The homeowners stated that the adhesive could remain as they were going to be installing new flooring over the adhesives. Homeowners NEVER once provided guidance as to which flooring was to be removed in what order so we followed our usual procedure.
  
  The attachments provided by 4Ws is the original estimate provided and final invoice sent to the clients.  They have copies of these attachments.
  
  In closing, we are seeking to be paid for the expenses incurred in the removal of the sheet vinyl flooring that was part of the original estimate and scope of work.

  Customer response

  09/11/2023

   

  1. Finally!

  2. It was disclosed during the site visit that the project would take 1 maybe 2 days.  This is the first time you have acknowledged that you were able to view the vinyl planks that we had removed.  So you finally admit that you were able to see what was required to be removed, how many layers were clearly evident and the difficulty in removing it. 

  4. Of course we wanted assurance that you could remove the vinyl plank first.  If not, there was no need to remove the sheet vinyl.  That was why we strongly stressed and demonstrated how difficult it was to remove the vinyl plank. You chose not to heed our strong warning and proceeded to rip out the easy part first before assuring you would be able to remove the vinyl plank.  
  

  That was your mistake.  There was no benefit to us in removing the sheet vinyl as it will now cost us more to build up that area with thicker plywood to the level of the remaining vinyl plank flooring. As your CEO admitted to us in an email that hindsight is 20/20 so why should we pay for your mistakes. 
  

  After the strong warning from the elderly clients about the removal of the vinyl plank you should have ensured you would be able to fulfill the contract by doing a small test patch before diving into the easy part first.

  We owe you nothing as you proceeded to follow your usual procedures, which we were not informed of, rather than ensure you could complete the entire contract before proceeding. 
  
  Sincerely,
  
  *********************

  

  Business response

  16/11/2023

  1. Sarcasm is not needed or appreciated.

  2. Again it was mentioned on site that it should take that time frame as mentioned in previous communications. There were very few planks removed, not nearly as much as the marks in the clients photos indicate.  The double layer of planks were evident along with the underlaying adhesive. 

  4. Had the homeowners requested the vinyl plank be removed prior to starting work on the sheet vinyl this would have been done.  Since it this was not requested we utilized our normal work procedures as the owners were not in attendance on the first day of work.

  In closing, we are seeking to be paid for the expenses incurred in the removal of the sheet vinyl flooring that was part of the original estimate and scope of work.

   

  Customer response

  16/11/2023

  
  Complaint: ********
  
  1. There was no sarcasm intended.

  2. We strongly warned you about the difficulty in removing the vinyl plank flooring.  We were worried it couldnt be done because we had tried and failed. You were confident your experts could do the job in 1 maybe 2 days.  Of course we wanted assurance you could remove the vinyl plank first otherwise there was no need to remove the sheet vinyl and we discussed that on your site visit.  Your mistake was to not do a test on the vinyl plank flooring before doing anything else. Blindly following your normal procedures despite our explicit, repeated warnings on the difficulty of the vinyl plank removal was your mistake.

  4. With regard to your comment, which is now the first time we have heard, about the homeowners not being in attendance on the first day of work you never once suggested or requested that we be there.  In fact you were relieved that we would be out of the house because it was a messy job.  We were easily reachable by phone, text or email if anything was required of us. 

  We did not benefit in anyway from you removing the sheet vinyl without removing the vinyl plank because it will now cost us more money to build up the floor to the level of the remaining vinyl plank flooring.  
  

  In conclusion, we owe you nothing as we didnt want or need the sheet vinyl removed without removing the vinyl plank flooring.
  
  Sincerely,
  
  *********************

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