Complaint Misrepresented product in advertising. Product I received defective and possibly someones' return Better Business Bureau
I am filing a complaint regarding a product I purchased from *** *********** at K mar Building Products.
The machine is not aliened correctly and I believe it is possibly a return or a reconditioned product. I specifically asked for an explanation of the hand etched finger dies and got not response.
I sent via USPS 20 inch blanks of the materials to be used in this machine. When I received the machine the sample materials were not even the same materials I had sent. One of the samples I got back has 3 small holes in it. The reason I know these are not my blanks is they are not painted on the inside. All my corrugated downspout material comes from ******************. Their downspout material is painted inside and outside. The sample elbows sent back to me are of a snug fit on the center die. My *********** material is sloppy loose. This machine was not build for my materials.
In my last e mail on ********** to the company, I expressed my concern that this machine is not accurately described. In fact it is described as the machine I purchased from them in **** (**********). By ********** the web site had been changed.
I am more than happy to forward all previous e mail correspondence along with proof of previous and current web pages.
Desired Settlement I am asking for my funds to be returned. At this point I am not concerned about all the additional expenses I have incurred. I don't want to take legal action, although I believe I have a strong case.
Business Response This machine is NOT a returned/reconditions item resold to them. It is directly off the factory line of the outside manufacturer.
The sample returned to him showing proper adjustment of the machine was not his material just as he stated but equivalent b/c his no longer remained. I explained this to him. His claim of the sample I sent w shipment having tears in it are unequivocally false.
We have spoken/emailed quite a few times. He is having B bend tear problems due to the left finger die only. As per his email to me ****** the A bends smooth, B bends tear on left and he would call next day. During call I said that I would have to modify a finger die and send. I did but regrettably sent the wrong die. However according to email from him on ******* he states that he took my advice and modified the original die .50 thousands and tears are gone but now crooked. This now tells me that in trying to correct the tears, the machine has been over-adjusted. On ******* on his email to me he states verbatim "I am not a novice with elbow machines." Elbow machines are very tricky. One 1/4 turn in wrong direction can mess machine up terribly and quickly reach the point of no return. This is why our warranty does not cover adjustments or user error. We have no idea what a user does to the machine once in their possession.
I was out of town working at the ************************** from **** thru ****. On ******* the Office Mgr offered to pay freight costs both ways to have the machine come here. Us paying for shipping is out of the realm of the Warranty but wanted to do something for them and resolve this matter. I was confident that I could address/repair all issues in my shop. The Office Mgr followed up w phone call later that day and left voice mail. That evening received email from him stating verbatim "Please respond w email only. I don't think I can have a civil conversation w you on this subject" and "If you refuse to refund on this machine I will start with the BBB and turn this over to my attorney". After waiting a few days, I gave one last effort and emailed him *** asking him to ***** or ********* in with me so that I could see the machine in operation hoping to instruct with adjustments. I have not heard from him to date.
To address the final issue of his claims of "False Advertising", I deny any purposeful activity of such or any "bait and switch". The K-Mar ********** Elbow Former he purchased in ********* came standard with a side crimper which in not applicable to the mechanics of the elbow bending process. We used a different manufacturer to make these exclusively for us. With rising costs and modification requests from the contractors/customers we needed to change manufacturers to a company who has been building these for 59 years successfully. The contractor (our customer) wanted it as affordable as possible. With doing this and the higher performance machine being 3x's the price, options such as the crimper were deleted. I neglected to tell the Office Mgr who does the marketing which includes brochures, website etc. Once she became aware of it by his email she changed it. Not to discredit this claim but to represent the product correctly. It is important to know that he emailed me on ****** and stated verbatim "at the time I ordered this machine I asked about the crimper. You informed me it is no longer offered on this machine. This by itself was not a deal breaker." He understood before the sale that this representation on the website was an error, therefore cannot and should not make claim to it now.
We never have allowed refunds on machines or special orders which this machines falls under both. They signed a Sales Order understanding that there will be no refunds. The warranty does not allow for user error such as adjustments. I am not saying this is what occurred b/c I have not had the opportunity to view it since it has left my shop. The warranty does not allow for me to pay shipping however I made this offer. The new machine worked excellent here but what it comes down to is that we need to follow the Warranty protocol of returning here for repair issues. They have a copy of the Warranty and I have made them aware of it. Had they done this first rather than file this report, they would have had it back fully operational by now.
Consumer Response (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) ***
You stated: This machine is NOT a return/reconditioned item resold to them. It is directly off the factory line of outside manufacturer.
Response: I have specifically requested an explanation of the hand etched finger dies in 2 previous e mails. I am still waiting.
You stated: The sample returned to him showing proper adjustment of the machine was not his material because his no longer remained. I explained this to him.
Response: You never told me the samples returned were not my blanks. That is a lie. They are similar in color only. We both know that even slight differences in material size or thickness can produce worthless elbows. If you had informed me I would have sent more blanks. This machine was supposed to be built for my material.
You stated: His claim of the sample I sent with shipment having tears in it are unequivocally false.
Response: I never said anything about the sample having tears in it. In our phone conversation on ****** I told *** one of the samples sent with the machine had three very small holes in it. I also said I was not overly concerned about these because they can be caused by small adjustment or lack of lubrication. My main concern were the 1" tears in the left side of the B bends. I you read my letter to the BBB I said one of the samples I got back has 3 small holes in it.
You stated: We have spoken & e mailed quiet a few times. He is having B bend tear problems due to the left finger die only. However according to e mail from him on ******* he states that he took my advice and modified the original die .50 thousands and the tears are gone but now crooked. This tells me that in trying to correct the tears the machine has been over adjusted.
Response: How do you assume the machine has been over adjusted? When the machine was delivered the adjustment was on #2. I took the .50 thousands of the left die. This gave the machine more clearance not less. The adjustment nut has never been tightened past #2. The machine has never over crimped or jammed up. All adjustments were done 1/8 turn at a time. It is very convenient to send a defective machine not even made to my material and then blame the customer.
You stated: I neglected to tell the office manager who does marketing which includes brochures, web sites, etc. Once she became aware of it by his e mail on ****** and stated verbatim "at the time I ordered this machine I asked about the crimper. You informed me it is no longer offered on this machine. this by itself was not a deal breaker" He understood before the sale that this representation on the web site was an error, therefore can not and should not make claim to it now.
Response: You neglected to tell the office manager from ************ to ******** that your product was misrepresented in your advertising. I find this hard to believe. If this machine arrived and worked properly I would not be mentioning the advertising. The fact is it was misrepresented and had I not asked about the crimper would you have informed me before the sale? No. Just as you never told me is was manual only. Nor did you inform me that to simply choose desired angle was not turning a dial to 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / or 90 degrees. Simply choosing desired angle is getting tool out, unbolting stop rod and installing chosen stop rod angle. You have consistently played fast and loose with the truth.
********** in my e mail I mentioned that the B dies had hand etching on them. On ******* I stated finger dies have hand etching on them. On ****** in the complaint to the BBB I asked what is the hand etching on finger dies. Why can't I get a response to a valid concern.
On ************* I was misinformed about the product I was purchasing. I was misinformed about the time table for delivery. I can not get a straight answer about possible used parts (finger dies). I was never informed that the machine was not tested with my blanks. I only noticed this when I compared the samples sent to me to the material I use. On the day you received my ** % down payment you have acted like the only thing that matters is your sales agreement. False advertising - not your fault. Late shipping - not your fault. Not made for my material - not your fault. Now after sending me a machine that has been misrepresented, late arriving and does not work you have the audacity to say I over adjusted it and it's my fault. This machine is not damaged. This machine is out of alinement from the factory.
Final Business Response We would still like to help the customer resolve his machine problem, we will still ship the machine back and tech any problems the customer seems to have. and ship it back free od shipping costs to the customer. We will need 50 pcs of his material to better understand what problems he may be having.
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