New pool liner was installed haphazardly resulting in 3 holes and wrinkles on the bottom. Contractor would not find holes and repair.
We hired ***** ********** to install a new liner.He was familiar with the pool from previous work,we explained the age of our pool and that it might need extra work. We asked him to give us a bid to fix it correctly, which we paid.
When he started taking the old liner out, we saw what looked like green algae and rust along the sides. We asked if some chemical or chlorine needed to be put on the green algae and if the sides needed to be sanded where the metal was rusted, he said," It was not needed." Due to the rain, he stopped cleaning and rushed to put the liner in. We have pictures of the green "stuff, " the rust on the sides, and the debris on the bottom of the pool with the liner out and then the same pile under the new liner.
The next morning the entire liner had pulled away and the liner was on the bottom of the pool with water completely surrounding it. ***** had to bring more equipment to take care of the water and he brought 2 helpers to help put the liner back in.It started raining again that day and the 3 of them had a lot of difficulty because it was so slipper.
After the job was completed, I sent him pictures showing the debris underneath the liner. I told him that I was afraid to use our cleaner because it might tear the liner. There was a huge indention under the skimmer where he had put the vacuum hose. He told us he would take care of it while we were on vacation in Sept. He came back while we were away and found no leaks. He checked the plumbing and found no leaks.
The new liner started leaking immediately after being installed before we had ever been in the pool. It leaked to the point there was only 6-8 inches of water in the shallow end, approx. losing 16,000 gallons of water. We do not have a main drain, the water was several feet below all plumbing,we knew there had to be a problem with the new liner.
We paid the bid of $3,700 to CB Pool Care upon completion of the job.Regardless of how many times ***** had to come and work on the liner, it should not have holes and leak. Holes just don't appear without a cause. Since we have not gotten to use the new pool liner, it certainly was of no fault of ours.We went into an agreement with ***** to do what it took to replace our liner and to make it right. We paid what he requested to do the job right.
We filled the pool up 3 times and the water continued to leak down to the same spot. ***** refused to come to see where the water had stopped.He demanded we call ************* and if there were holes in the liner he would pay half of the charge,which was $405.By this time we had closed down the pool for the winter so ************* came on May 6, 2014. ************* found 3 holes in the liner. ***** sent an email stating he was refusing to pay the half he had promised.
In an email dated May 12, 2014, ***** said that "there was nothing wrong with the integrity of the liner or my workmanship that played any role in the holes in your liner"....
I explained to ***** that a new liner does not just develop holes, especially when it has not been used. I have pictures showing rust that was not cleaned before installing the new liner in the exact location of where the holes were found and before and after pictures of debris left under the new liner.
My last email to him was on May 13 stating: "If you had paid for a new liner,wouldn't you expect it to hold water, for there to be no large wrinkles, and for the rubber edging to stay in? That is all we are asking for. I'm sorry this job was a nightmare for you, but that was not our fault in any way. Please advise if you are going to fix these problems."
***** has not replied.
We have copies of 24 emails sent to him and many pictures before,during, and after installation.
We expect ***** to get the wrinkles out of the bottom of the pool, make sure the rubber edging stays in the top of the liner, and pay the $200 he agreed to pay for ******** **** since they did find 3 holes in the liner.
The customer does not state that the water was not leaking due to anything I did while installing the new liner. I asked the homeowner to call the leak detection company to schedule them to come out and find leak. If there was something found wrong with the manufacturing of the liner such as seam separations or workmanship that I would cover the cost of leak detection. I made several attempts to get the manufacturer to cover the cost but they would not because it was not a seam separation or workmanship. The three holes found in the shallow end wall were determined to be caused by bugs such as termites or ants. They are a pretty common with vinyl liner pools. This is the reason I will not return to repair wrinkles in the liner since it was not the liner or me that caused the leak therefor the homeowner should be responsible for repair. The leak detection did find a leak in the customers plumbing line as well he fails to mention that either. The skimmer suction line was found to have a leak. As a small business owner I feel as if I have done everything in my power to make the customer happy. I made several trips to try to find leak myself by checking all return fittings, skimmer gasket and light ring gaskets where I cut the liner to instal these parts and didn't find anything wrong with my workmanship. Once the new liner was installed it looked great but h they were not happy because you can see imperfections on the floor when the sun shined on it. Well since the pool is VERY old unless you redo the whole floor that will happen. I did come back and remove all water and liner to repair two spots on floor at no additional cost to the customer. Also I gave the customer a $100 water credit to cover the water bill since I had to remove water and refill pool.
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
This customer did state to ***** ********** that the water was leaking due to his installation of the liner. The old liner did not leak. It needed to be replaced before winter because there was a large tear about 4-6 inches above the water line due to a water toy. The liner needed to be replaced before winter because the tear continued to expand due to being old and brittle. But, we were not losing water due to the tear being well above the water level.
When the new liner was installed and it continued to leak down several inches from the bottom of the shallow end losing about 16,000 gallons of water, we continued to call and email ***** to please come and look where the water had stopped so he could find the leak. (We have copies of 24 emails.) We knew that the leak had to be close to where the water had stopped. He refused to come and told us to call ******** **** and if there was a hole in the liner he would pay half of the bill. ******** **** found 3 holes in the liner exactly where the water had stopped. ***** refused to pay his half. Our pictures show rust spots when he took out the liner exactly where the holes were found. The leak company did find a leak in the skimmer suction line, but the technician told us that the thousands of gallons of water loss was from the holes. The leak in the skimmer line would only leak to the bottom of the skimmer box because that is where the skimmer leak was. That leak has been there for many years. But because it was not causing us to lose more than an inch or two of water weekly, we didn't feel it was worth $1200 to fix. After ******** **** patched the 3 holes, we have not had to add water, which proves the point that the severe water leak was from the 3 holes.
Yes, ***** did give us a $100 water credit, but that was for the water that had to be replaced the day after the first installation because the liner had completely come out and was floating in the pool. All water had to be drained and then refilled. We also had to fill the pool at our expense when he drained it to take out the debris he left under the new liner and again when the water leaked out as mentioned above in the shallow end from the holes. We have water bills to prove that we paid $350.17 over and above our normal water bill just to keep putting water in the pool. Plus we had to keep adding chemicals which were even more expensive than the water to keep the pool balanced
We had our exterminator to come back and check for termites this week. They automatically come every 6 months but he came this week at our request. There are no termites or ever have been at this residence. We have ********* cylinders in the ground to prevent termites around our residence as well as around the pool. We have a letter stating there are no termites.
***** stated that in his reply that "The three holes found in the shallow end wall were determined to be caused by bugs such as termites or ants." Who determined the holes were caused by termites or ants ??? ************* sure did not make that statement when we questioned the tech. We called them back after *****'s reply and they said that if the holes had been caused by bugs or termites that would have been written on our bill report. It was not. Arrow exterminator assures us there are no termites.
The liner is a ****. I also talked with them. They said that they are only responsible for a liner when there is a defect in the seam. They cannot be responsible for the workmanship of the person installing the liner, and their web site even states: "For many years now it has been known and proven that termites and ants will sometimes attack a vinyl pool liner. Usually the first signs are very small holes in the liner above the water line."
The holes were about 3 feet below the water line. If ***** saw termites or ants when he took out the liner, why was this not mentioned. "Termites make trails" , if there were any, they would have been obvious. Plus they would have caused holes in our old liner.
The imperfections that we were unhappy with were large pieces of debris from the poolkrete he left behind when he installed the new liner. Our pictures clearly show the debris on the bottom of the pool and then the debris bulging through the new liner. This was brought to his attention immediately while he was still at our home. We even asked if a rubber mallet could break them up without hurting the liner because they were so large we knew if someone walked on them they would cause a hole. That is why he came back while we were on vacation to repair it. Our pictures show many large pieces of debris. You didn't have to have the sun to see them. They were the size of a golf ball. We sent him the pictures.
We paid for a new liner to be installed correctly. He told us that if he used more than 2 bags of poolkrete he would charge us extra. We told him " that was fine, do whatever you have to do to make it right. " We even ordered the thickest liner so it would last longer. On the initial installation he used only 1 bag. The rain ruined the other bag he had with him. If the pool was in such a bad shape, why didn't he tell us and charge more to use more poolkrete. We paid the bid we were given. It doesn't matter how many times he had to come back. The liner should have been installed correctly and should hold water without having to be patched. As I stated earlier, when questioned about the green algae and the rust, ***** said that nothing was necessary.
As far as the checking all return fittings, we had already paid him for that work through a home protection insurance company that he worked for , which he did an excellent job. That is why we hired him to put in the new liner.
We still have 3 large wrinkles between 3-5 feet each .
Today we were advised by another pool company with a BBB A+ rating that looked at the pictures that: *Chlorine should have been sprayed on the green algae. The algae can penetrate the liner and cause stains on the liner. This is also stated on the website for **** liners and they even give the directions for applying the chlorine before installing the new liner. They even suggest to their installers to use "Stain Barrier."
*A foam liner should have been used between the metal sides and the pool liner which would have covered the rust. Without the foam liner they feel that more holes will result from the rust.
*The wrinkles need to be removed to prevent further damage. They also told us not to use our automatic cleaner until the wrinkles have been removed.
Our pictures and the 24 emails show and tell the whole story. We would have much rather paid a higher bid to have the job done completely without short-cuts than to have to worry about the rust tearing more holes and having to pay ******** **** $425 per visit to have to find them. We are senior citizens and too old to go diving to find holes.
Final Consumer Response
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
My questions to CB Pool Care are:
1.)When you install a new liner and it immediately starts losing excessive amounts of water, approximately 16,000 gallons of water before the pool is ever used, then you take no responsibility in finding or repairing the leaks? Is that the customer's fault?
2.)When you say you will use up to 2 bags of poolkrete to repair the pool and charge extra if more is needed to make the pool right, yet you say no more is needed and there was no extra charge, shouldn't the customer be able to assume that all needed repairs were made?
3.)When the customer sends you pictures of obvious clods of poolkrete lying on the bottom of the raw pool floor and then pictures showing the clods sticking through the new liner because the installer did not remove the clods before installing, is that the customer's fault?
4.)When the rubber tubing (casing) that is put in at the top of the pool to help hold the liner in falls out the day the liner is installed and continues to fall out daily even though the customer tries to reinsert because the installer ignores the request to reinstall , do you not take any responsibility in reinserting the rubber casing or is it just suppose to just hang in the water and break off? Is that the customer's fault?
5.)When large wrinkles are in the bottom of the pool after installation and you tell the customer you can easily get them out with a plunger, yet they are still there and you refuse to even try to get them out, is that the customer's fault?
6.)When you tell the customer to call ************* and " if they find any holes in the liner you will pay half of the bill" (phone call and email #23) and then when ************* finds 3 holes in the liner and you decide to not pay as promised, is that being honest and fair to your customer? Once the 3 holes were patched we have not lost any more water, as of today.
7.)When the installer just decides that the holes are from termites and bugs, yet the customer pays an exterminator and ************* to check for bugs and termites and none are found how was that determination made?
As we have already stated three times previously. We paid the requested bid for a new liner to be properly installed which was supposedly completed while we were on vacation, returning home on October 8, 2013. That very week when we arrived home email #11, 12, 13, & 14 state that the new liner "is losing lots of water." Since we were gone on vacation, it is obvious that we had not been in the pool to cause the excessive loss of water. We begged the installer to come back to find the leaks when the water dropped within about 6 inches in the shallow end, he refused.
If an installer is not going to guarantee his newly installed liners to hold water after the day it is installed, that should be stated in his contract. CUSTOMER BEWARE!
Final Business Response
As I have stated I did not cause the leak in the liner during install or any other attempt to make customer satisfied. I think I have been more than courteous to offer to reset liner. Since the customer refuses to accept my offer I am no longer willing to negotiate and all previous offers are off the table. I have been in contact with my attorney and the customer will be receiving a letter soon.